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They'd be pulling as much G as their power available could sustain. That's how you pull lead on your opponent. All this talk of wing loading and wing area and CsubL and slats misses the point. It's all a function of the effective thrust of your powerplant AT A NEAR STALL AOA compared to the L/D of your entire airframe AT THAT AOA that determines your performance in a turning fight.Normally, in a low speed turning fight they would not be pulling a lot of G's.
Pben said:In my opinion, especially with the Bf109 the lower the landing speed the better things are. The 109 was best landed in a three point landing, so slower the better as I see it
In the interwar years there was a debate about what was the best way forward with monoplane design. Thin wings were known to stall easily but were obviously lower drag than thicker wings. The official line in UK was that thicker wings were best and Hawkers followed this, Mitchell at Supermarine had other ideas he produced a thin elliptical wing with washout. Willy produced his design which was a thin straight wing with slats and no washout. from wiki …..A fighter was designed primarily for high-speed flight. A smaller wing area was optimal for achieving high speed, but low-speed flight would suffer, as the smaller wing would require more airflow to generate enough lift to maintain flight. To compensate for this, the Bf 109 included advanced high-lift devices on the wings, including automatically-opening leading edge slats, and fairly large camber-changing flaps on the trailing edge. The slats increased the lift of the wing considerably when deployed, greatly improving the horizontal maneuverability of the aircraft, as several Luftwaffe veterans, such as Erwin Leykauf, attest.[24][25] Messerschmitt also included ailerons that "drooped" when the flaps were lowered (F series and later the lower radiator flap operated as part of the flap system), thereby increasing the effective flap area . When deployed, these devices effectively increased the wings' coefficient of lift. ………….. The 109 gained weight considerably during its life, it needed lift devices to cope with its increased weight. The 109 was the frontline fighter of the LW from the mid 1930s, the tactics and maneuvers that they used as routine were developed in the 109.No doubt, better - but necessary? Like I said, I think they were landing the 109E's ok. I'm not even sure what we are debating at this point so I'll reiterate my claim - the slats helped in combat and I think that mattered significantly. I don't think they were just for landing in other words.
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If the design didn't allow for dramatic improvements to things like engines, increased fuel capacity, armor, more weapons and various other factors, it wasn't such a good design. That is one of the main traits that defined a good aircraft in WW2.
In fact per the thread title, it's probably one of the less obvious but most important traits of a good warplane - the capacity for improvement and modification, as a subset of overall versatility. That is the difference between a lot of the other 1930's designs like the Curtiss Hawk, I-16, MS. 406 and the Hurricane: they were pretty good in their day, and remained formidable for a few years, but ultimately didn't have room for the dramatic improvements needed for the rapidly accelerating pace of aircraft design and the swiftly soaring requirements for an expanded flight envelope for the ever more dangerous combat environment of WW2.
If you're down to 150 and still haven't pulled enough lead to get a shot, it's time to bug out. A turning fight is not a steady state affair. Usually entered at a relatively high speed, it is generally a matter of diminishing airspeed and altitude as it progresses. If you haven't gained any nose to tail separation by two turns, it's time to go.My point is that if you are going say 150 mph and turning tightly (such as while pulling lead), you are more likely to stall (and probably spin) before you build up very high G loads.
Of course it does. It affects both the Lift side and the Drag side of your high AOA turning airplane, and consequently your turning radius. It's just not the sole determining factor some folks like to imply.And I'm sorry, I don't agree. Wing loading does affect your turn rate, regardless.
As I read "stuff" on the Bf109 wing, it wasn't a leap forward in technology to gain an advantage in aerodynamics and performance, it was an engineering compromise to maintain control at stall and be easy to produce. It was certainly better than the thick wings of the Hurricane in terms of speed, whether it was or wasn't better than the Spitfire is a debate that has been held many times. What is not debatable is that the Bf109 wing was easier to produce and also it couldn't contain weapons within it, which is what the engineering compromises and solutions were all about.
Did I get that wrong or was it that my woman was Chuvasha?Well...
I'm Russian and now I have to learn something new about my mother tongue. Should I go back to grade school...
No idea what your point is but the translation of brother sister and cousin are not the same in Russian, and Bf109 wings were easier to produce by a country mile than the spitfires were.Did I get that wrong or was it that my woman was Chuvasha?
And how! Just ask any Experimental Aircraft Association homebuilder who's tried to build a replica Spit. That ellipse is a fussbudget job to build.and Bf109 wings were easier to produce by a country mile than the spitfires were.
Interesting...There is no word for cousin in the Russian language, your cousins are your brothers and sisters.
If you're down to 150 and still haven't pulled enough lead to get a shot, it's time to bug out. A turning fight is not a steady state affair. Usually entered at a relatively high speed, it is generally a matter of diminishing airspeed and altitude as it progresses. If you haven't gained any nose to tail separation by two turns, it's time to go.
The Curtiss Hawk was better than the other other three at being developed. It also shows a bit of the difference that just being a bit bigger can bring.
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The Hawk on the other hand did pretty good for a plane that flew over 6 months before the 109 (in May 1935), unfortunately it was saddled with a prototype engine that went nowhere and Curtiss began a mad scramble to get a good engine for it. It started life at a bit over 4800lbs but that might not include guns and the P-40Qs hit 9000lbs so it certainly exhibited quite a bit of stretch..
Early P-40s were little more than Allison equipped P-36s. Brothers if not clones. Certainly closer than cousins.I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that the P-36 and the P-40 were the same aircraft.
The P-40 was literally a P-36 with a V-12 mounted in it's nose. The XP-40 was the 10th P-36 off the production line that had it's radial removed and an Allison faired in.I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that the P-36 and the P-40 were the same aircraft. Certainly they were related, but it's rather similar to saying the Blenheim, Beaufort and the Beaufighter are the same (despite similar dimensions and sharing many of the same jigs and so on, I would say they were at best cousins) or the LaGG -3 to the La 5 / La 7, and so on. Same lineage surely, but different aircraft.
Perhaps it's time to revisit your literature?
Curtiss refined the XP-40 but made no real changed to the P-36 airframe tooling. The difference in wingspan between the P-36 and the P-40 was literally fractions of an inch. There was no significant between the P-36 and the P-40 from the firewall back.
So what "long shot" are we talking about?
Of course, from the firewall forward, there will be considerable differences, as the Allison required additional sheet metal and plumbing. But aside from that, there was no discernible difference. And this was in Curtiss' favor as they didn't need to stop production and retool for a new aircraft.
Lavochkin did the exact same thing with his La-5.
What happened with the later variants doesn't apply, were talking direct transitions from one type to the next at it's inception.