Thumpalumpacus
Major
There's no way on Earth the American people would accept any sort of negotiated peace with the nation that bombed Pearl Harbor, aside from retaining the Emperor, of course.
Questions about B-29 operational range, VVS, VVS intercept capability if Operation Unthinkable happen.
- Thread starter Warbringer
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There's no way on Earth the American people would accept any sort of negotiated peace with the nation that bombed Pearl Harbor, aside from retaining the Emperor, of course.
Nothing is impossible in geopolitics. It is just a matter of the quality of propaganda.
I agree.
But the prospect of some of the estimated figures for the level of casualties that might be expected from invading Japan was troubling the politicians. So if they could not spare the forces to do that, then other alternatives might be looked at. Like more bombing or starving the Japanese into submission. But the latter might have taken until 1947 on some estimates.
On the subject of USAAF strength, there was a planning document JCS 521/12 dated 25 March 1945 that set out the deployment position after the end of the war in Europe.
For the war against Japan this was updated on 9 August 1945. Given that all the B-29s in this timeframe were to be allocated to the Pacific, it gives some idea of the strength of the B-29 force in 1945/46. JCS 521/12 had envisaged the B-29 force building up to 48 VHB BG by March 1946. That was reduced to 40 VHB in the 9 Aug plan. 20 of those had already deployed to the Pacific and were based in the Marianas (18 had arrived before VE Day, with the other 2 en route) while another 4 were in the process of deploying to 8th AF on Okinawa (spread between the West Coast & Okinawa) on 15 Aug with 8 more due by Dec 1945 and the final 8 by March 1946. The oddity is that the unit equipment figure is 34 aircraft per group rather than the 45 I would have expected.
While some of the units destined for Okinawa had been designated as VHB as early as Aug 1944 (having been training units in the USA) there were aircraft and equipment shortages that meant some did not receive B-29s until as late as Spring 1945.
Production was stopped in Sept / Oct at all 4 plants after 3,943 B-29 / B-29A / B-29B had been produced. I have a figure of 499 being lost by the various BW, but I think that is after they reached the combat zone so excludes losses in training etc.
By Aug 1945, if it was expected that a unit would not be ready to deploy by March 1946, plans for it to do so were shelved and the unit disbanded in the USA.
So, if you redirect all B-29s not already deployed in the Marianas on VE-Day to some of these other bases, you don't begin to build up that B-29 force until the end of July at the earliest.
B-32
The 312th BG began the conversion from the A-20 to the B-32 in May 1945 with the arrival of a test detachment. Only 1 or 2 of its squadrons did eventually convert. This was being classed by the USAAF as a Heavy Bomber not a Very Heavy Bomber. As far as I can determine the 312th BG was the only unit in the Pacific theatre expected to transition to the B-32, production of which was slow.
Other butterflies (some I've mentioned before)
Soviet invasion of Manchuria & other Far East areas. Does it happen at all? On what scale? How fast does it go? If on a reduced scale, can the Japanese withstand the attack?
What is happening in China? The Chinese offensive in the south had gained traction in summer 1945 as the Japanese withdrew nearer their homeland. New routes for LL aid by sea from the Philippines had opened up. Who do the Chinese Communists hate most? The Japanese or the Chinese Nationalists? What support do the Communists get from USSR who might see it as a way of forcing the USA to intervene in mainland China to assist its long time ally?
Lend Lease is interesting. The 4th Protocol with USSR ended on 30 June 1945, at which point some aid was still in transit. The USA alone continued LL supplies outwith any protocol agreements as an inducement for Stalin to keep his promise about declaring war on Japan. Obviously it ends at some point but in the summer of 1945 the Soviets got a lot of shipping to assist in their amphibious assaults (see Project Hula that had started in early March 1945 with vessels sailing between mid-May & early Sept). Not having these vessels must surely have some impact on Soviet invasion plans in the Far East.
Project Hula - Wikipedia
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,340
- Jan 31, 2021
"I say we take off and nuke the country from altitude. It's the only way to be sure." -- Ripley, probably
Gen Groves Memo of 30 July 1945 giving details of expected A-bomb production through to the end of 1945. There were discussions about using these weapons tactically ahead of the landings on Kyushu. Fortunately none of this came to pass.
Atomic Bomb: Decision -- Bomb Production Schedule, July 30, 1945
The Manhattan Project could make atomic bombs at an ever-increasing rate
www.dannen.com
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Yeah, that level wouldn't be reached here inre: the Japanese in 1945. It ain't gonna happen.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 908
- Sep 30, 2021
B-29 production ended at Bell and Martin in September 1945, it ended in October at Wichita with the final 2 acceptances. The Renton B-29A line paused in October 1945 then resumed, another 7 built November and December 1945 and 62 January to June 1946.
Boeing Seattle 3 XB-29
Boeing Wichita 14 YB-29
Boeing Wichita 1,620 B-29
Boeing Renton 1,119 B-29A
Bell 357 B-29
Bell 311 B-29B
Martin 536 B-29
Total 3,960
USAAF Statistical Digest
Overseas includes losses suffered enroute to and from overseas as well as losses in Theatre, ATC foreign divisions and other overseas commands. Negative Loss numbers indicate the excess of gains from salvage over losses
End April 1945 the USAAF reports 1,373 B-32 and TB-32 on order or accepted, program completions in the second half of 1946, end May it was 214 on order or accepted, to be completed by end 1945.
Boeing Seattle 3 XB-29
Boeing Wichita 14 YB-29
Boeing Wichita 1,620 B-29
Boeing Renton 1,119 B-29A
Bell 357 B-29
Bell 311 B-29B
Martin 536 B-29
Total 3,960
USAAF Statistical Digest
| A | B-29 | B-29 | B-29 | B-29 | B-29 | B-29 | B-29 Group | B-29 Group | B-29 Group | B-29 Group | B-29 Group |
| B | B-29 | B-29 | B-29 | B-29 | B-29 | B-29 | Group | CONUS | CONUS | CONUS | Overseas |
| C | Losses | Losses | Losses | Strength | Strength | Strength | Grand | Operational | Manning | Strategic | Versus |
| D | Total | CONUS | Overseas | 1st Line | 2nd Line/misc | Total | Totals | Training | Phase | Reserve | Japan |
Dec-42 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | |||||
Jan-43 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | |||||
Feb-43 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
Mar-43 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
Apr-43 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
May-43 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
Jun-43 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
Jul-43 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 |
Aug-43 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 11 | 11 | 5 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 0 |
Sep-43 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 16 | 21 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
Oct-43 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 9 | 15 | 24 | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 0 |
Nov-43 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 32 | 15 | 47 | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 0 |
Dec-43 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 76 | 15 | 91 | 9 | 4 | 4 | 1 | 0 |
Jan-44 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 128 | 14 | 142 | 8 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 0 |
Feb-44 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 182 | 14 | 196 | 8 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 0 |
Mar-44 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 235 | 13 | 248 | 10 | 4 | 6 | 0 | 0 |
Apr-44 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 295 | 12 | 307 | 17 | 8 | 9 | 0 | 0 |
May-44 | 7 | 1 | 6 | 376 | 12 | 388 | 17 | 4 | 9 | 0 | 4 |
Jun-44 | 24 | 5 | 19 | 435 | 10 | 445 | 21 | 4 | 13 | 0 | 4 |
Jul-44 | 14 | 6 | 8 | 492 | 8 | 500 | 21 | 6 | 11 | 0 | 4 |
Aug-44 | 25 | 5 | 20 | 558 | 6 | 564 | 24 | 8 | 12 | 0 | 4 |
Sep-44 | 18 | 7 | 11 | 647 | 5 | 652 | 24 | 10 | 10 | 0 | 4 |
Oct-44 | 19 | 8 | 11 | 743 | 5 | 748 | 24 | 8 | 8 | 0 | 8 |
Nov-44 | 36 | 6 | 30 | 834 | 28 | 862 | 24 | 8 | 8 | 0 | 8 |
Dec-44 | 55 | 6 | 49 | 942 | 35 | 977 | 25 | 9 | 6 | 0 | 10 |
Jan-45 | 44 | 10 | 34 | 1,096 | 55 | 1,151 | 25 | 9 | 4 | 0 | 12 |
Feb-45 | 46 | 11 | 35 | 1,114 | 259 | 1,373 | 25 | 9 | 2 | 0 | 14 |
Mar-45 | 50 | 12 | 38 | 1,295 | 318 | 1,613 | 26 | 10 | 0 | 0 | 16 |
Apr-45 | 83 | 24 | 59 | 1,415 | 437 | 1,852 | 26 | 10 | 0 | 0 | 16 |
May-45 | 113 | 22 | 91 | 1,565 | 518 | 2,083 | 26 | 8 | 0 | 0 | 18 |
Jun-45 | 70 | 17 | 53 | 1,764 | 610 | 2,374 | 28 | 10 | 0 | 0 | 18 |
Jul-45 | 98 | 72 | 26 | 1,970 | 654 | 2,624 | 37 | 16 | 0 | 0 | 21 |
Aug-45 | 62 | 44 | 18 | 2,132 | 733 | 2,865 | 40 | 17 | 0 | 0 | 23 |
Sep-45 | 14 | 3 | 11 | 2,242 | 752 | 2,994 | 40 | 17 | 0 | 0 | 23 |
Oct-45 | 9 | 2 | 7 | 2,224 | 765 | 2,989 | 33 | 16 | 0 | 4 | 13 |
Nov-45 | -2 | -8 | 6 | 2,216 | 776 | 2,992 | 31 | 14 | 0 | 5 | 12 |
Dec-45 | -3 | -2 | -1 | 2,157 | 839 | 2,996 | 29 | 12 | 0 | 5 | 12 |
1943 | 3 | 3 | 0 | ||||||||
1944 | 203 | 45 | 158 | ||||||||
1945 | 584 | 207 | 377 | ||||||||
| Total | 790 | 255 | 535 |
End April 1945 the USAAF reports 1,373 B-32 and TB-32 on order or accepted, program completions in the second half of 1946, end May it was 214 on order or accepted, to be completed by end 1945.
Alan Stevens
Airman 1st Class
- 108
- May 24, 2023
Japan was like Grand Central Station for jet stream activity. Europe at least where the heavy bombers flew had no jet stream activity that I have ever read about.I'm not a meteorologist but have learnt enough from the TV weather forecasts to know that the jet stream is not some fixed river in the sky. It moves about and affects the weather patterns around it. Couple of diagrams here showing movements over Asia under different conditions.
There is now an interactive global jetstream forecaster on internet showing predicted movements for the next month or so. Interesting to see how it moves.
Global Jet Stream Map - Netweather
View the jet stream forecast for the entire globewww.netweather.tv
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I'm thinking that if Unthinkable happened, B-29 production wouldn't be stopped. Other airframes as well would be carried on, too. A lot more not only B-29s, but more P-47Ns, P-51Hs, not to mention ground equipment like M-26s and so on.
The USA would most certainly use its massive industrial capacity in any follow-on war against the USSR. Given the Soviets' reliance on LL for stuff like steel, POLs, and even soft support like boots and uniforms, it could get dicey.
Less given to USSR means more available for domestic American production.
The USA would most certainly use its massive industrial capacity in any follow-on war against the USSR. Given the Soviets' reliance on LL for stuff like steel, POLs, and even soft support like boots and uniforms, it could get dicey.
Less given to USSR means more available for domestic American production.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
There was also quite a few U.S. aircraft (fighters and bombers) in development during the war, that were on the verge of production before being axed by Japan's surrender.
Had the war against the Soviet Union commenced, I imagine that these aircraft may have come into being.
Had the war against the Soviet Union commenced, I imagine that these aircraft may have come into being.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Didn't check the specs but I'm pretty sure the Meteor, Shooting Star, P-82 and probably a few other super props would've been able to deal with the MiG 9.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
DH Venom (or Vampire? I confuzzle 'em). The Avro Lincoln. Comet tanks. It's not like USSR is only fighting one nation now. They're only fighting the two most powerful economies in the world.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
A few potential U.S. jet types:
Douglas XB-42, Ryan FR, McDonnell FD
And yes, the DeHavilland Vampire was about to appear on the scene in the closing days of WWII.
There's no particular reason to worry about the MiG-9. It had a very limited combat value; it was more of an aircraft for learning jet propulsion rather than a combat fighter, despite its outwardly formidable armament. It had serious limitations on the use of weapons, poor maneuverability, cranky German engines. Even in training combats with "Lavochkins" it did not demonstrate real superiority - perhaps because of insufficient training of pilots.
In addition, only the end of the war with Germany allowed the Soviets to free up design personnel and production capacity to learn from German experience and build jet airplanes. I think that with the continuation of the war the Soviets will either have no such opportunity at all or it will be very limited.
Last edited:
Ascent
Senior Airman
I don't think the Mig-9 was going to be an issue. A good video about it here.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP_Qyh6fZCg
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP_Qyh6fZCg
The following new aircraft types entering service in 1945 come to mind.
Britain
Supermarine Spitfire XXI - first two squadrons converted in April / May 1945
Gloster Meteor - still in low rate production of Mk.III. 616 squadron received these in Jan 1945 followed by just 4 other squadrons in 1945 (April, June, July, Oct)
De Havilland Vampire - first production aircraft only flew on 20 April 1945 and early aircraft were not pressurised. Few (a dozen?) available by Aug 1945. First squadron formed March 1946 with two more in Oct 1946.
Lincoln - Only cleared for service use in Aug 1945 with 3 delivered to each of two squadrons for trials in Aug/Sept. It was April 1946 before it was accepted for full squadron service.
Hawker Tempest II - first 2 squadrons converted to type in Aug 1945
Blackburn Firebrand TF.IV - first squadron formed 1 Sept 1945
USA
Vought F4U-4 Corsair - began to reach squadrons about April 1945
Grumman F7F-1 - was beginning to arrive in the Pacific in Aug 1945 as land based photo recce and night fighter
Grumman F8F-1 - Bearcat - VF-19, the first squadron went to sea in Sept 1945
Ryan FR Fireball - first squadron, VF-66 received them in March 1945 and was still working up when the war ended. Only unit equipped with the type.
Lockheed P-38M - the nightfighter version
Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star - First unit, 412th FG on verge of deployment to Pacific in Aug 1945. Another 30 aircraft shipped to Philippines in summer 1945 lacked wing tip fuel tanks so not issued until 1946. Type was grounded by end of 1945 due to accident rate.
McDonnell FD-1 / FH-1 Phantom 1 - first production contract awarded 7 March 1945 for 100 later cut back to 60. Production was slow taking to 1948 to complete. 1947 before the first squadron was formed to operate these.
P-82 - only flew in prototype Packard Merlin engined form in April 1945. Only 20 P-82B (of 500 on order) flew before the end of the war.
Jets on carriers.
Due to engine characteristics there was grave doubts in 1945 as to whether they could successfully operate from a carrier deck. The RN made the first jet carrier landings and take-offs on 3 Dec 1945 with a modified Vampire on the light carrier Ocean. The USN deck landed a jet for the first time in July 1946 with the FH-1 Phantom 1, on one of its largest carriers, the Midway class Franklin D Roosevelt.
Tanks
Comet - 29th Armd Brigade, 11th Armd Div converted to these in spring 1945 and used them in the final campaign. 22nd Armd Brig, 7th Armd Div began conversion in summer 1945.
Centurion - 6 Mk.1 arrived in Germany for trials just as the war in Europe was ending. Full production began in Nov 1945
M-26 - Some 2,200 were produced in 1945 with only a few reaching Europe before VE-Day. Plans were in hand for deployment in the Pacific in time for Operation Olympic
IS.3 - Production of this Soviet tank began in summer 1945, and made its first public appearance in Sept.
It is hard to say how high the real combat value of the IS-3 would have been. It also turned out to be more of a "parade tank". IS-3 right from the factory were sent ... for repair to eliminate design flaws. Tests of the armor by fire from anti-tank guns revealed a serious defect - if a shell hit a kink in the frontal armor ("pike nose"), the armored hull could simply collapse along the welds.
The "pike nose" was removed in the course of modification, but after that the interest in the tank dropped to almost zero. The main heavy tank remained the IS-2, the IS-4 was produced very few, and they too suffered from numerous design flaws.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
The two economies that can produce a surplus of great trucks, quality avgas, wire, decent uniforms, well made boots and Spam.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I love his channel. The presenter is Ukrainian. I enjoyed his comments on the hate mail he received for being "Russian".
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
The Vampire was first. I use Squire's YT channel helpful tip:
"The Venom is a Vampire that doesn't suck...(get it? a vampire that doesn't suck.)"
