Rare Crazy Panzer Projekts.

[CharlesBronson]

Yeah, there is a KingTiger there though with it's turret blown clean off it's ring! Not necesssarily ammo going off though, as the Zvierboy could do that with it's humongous 152mm gun

I was talking about the Tiger I not II, it was the hardest to burn and explode like the Wittman escenario.

The King Tiger despite his colossal armour seems to have his troubles also. this I think was ble up by his own crew, thre is no visible holes.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

That's possible CB, also it could have been penetrated from the side/rear. The N/S track seems to be stuck, either it was abandoned 'cos of that, or a 152mm drove it into the mud?

Furthering my Wittman mainly HE Loadout theory, Wittman himself also said AT guns were his most feared enemy...

 

[CharlesBronson]

Landwasserschlepper

Development of Landwasserschlepper (Land-Water-Tractor) started in 1936, but first 7 vehicles were completed in July of 1940. Additional 14 were produced by March of 1941. It was designed by Rheinmetall-Borsig as an amphibious vehicle for the use by engineers but it lacked storage and loading/unloading access. To overcome this problem, special 10 and 20 ton amphibious trailers were made. It carried 3 to 5 men crew and 20 passangers. Another problem was that it was unarmored and could operate effectively in the combat area. LWS saw service in Russia and North Africa.

Despite being unarmored the LWS probe to be a extremely useful vehicle in the always changing terrain conditions of the Russian lanscape.

Weight: 17000kg
Crew: 5 men
Engine: Maybach HL 120TRM / 12-cylinder / 300hp
Speed: Road: 35km/h
Water: 12km/h
Range: Road: 150km
Lenght: 7.68m
Width: 2.34m
Height: 2.65m

 

[CharlesBronson]

Aditional pics of the Land-water-tractor.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Porsche VK3001 Leopard.

In 1937, along with Henschel, Porsche was given the task of build the medium tank that would replace Panzerkampfwagen IV. Its design was supposed to be capable of being armed with 75mm L/24 or even if possible 105mm L/28 gun and one 7.92mm MG34 for local defence. VK3001(P) was Porsche's first design since 1927's Grosstraktor I and its drawings were finished by September 5th of 1939 by Porsche's Chief Engineer Karl Rabe.

Prototypes were supposed to be fitted with turrets manufactured by Krupp. Porsche considered arming the vehicle with 105mm KwK L/47, 105mm KwK L/52 gun and finally with 88mm KwK 36 L/56 gun (developed from 88mm Flak 36 gun). Six turrets armed with 88mm guns were ordered in April of 1941, but none were produced. Leopard's turret was similar in appearance to that used on Tiger(P) and Tiger. Porsche planned to power VK3001(P) with gasoline-electric power/drive system (two air-cooled Porsche Typ 100 engines by Steyr and electric transmission). Only one or two turretless prototypes were completed by Nibelungenwerke in St.Valentin, Austria in late (October) 1941, out of 3 hulls originally ordered.

F. Porsche (with hat) testing his vehicle.

Although many problems were encountered with its advanced power and drive system, prototype(s) performed well. During tests prototype(s) reached maximum speed of 60km/h but its fuel consumption was 170 liters per 100 kilometers. In order to solve the engine problems, Porsche designed diesel engine (Porsche Typ 200) but it was never produced.

VK3001(P) program was abandoned and two prototypes were used extensively in the development of VK4501(P) - Porsche's Tiger, which started in July of 1941. In order to transport VK3001(P) tank, Porsche designed special tank transporter (Panzertransporter Porsche 142), but this project was also abandoned. Tests continued until May of 1942, but VK3001(P) never went into production just like VK3001(H) and VK3601(H).

Weight: 30000kg
Crew: 5 men
Engine: 2 x Porsche Typ 100 / 10-cylinder / 210hp
Speed: 60km/h
Lenght: 6.58m
Width: 3.80m
Height: 3.05m
Armament: 75mm KwK 37 L/24 7.92mm MG34
105mm KwK L/28 7.92mm MG34

Armor (mm/angle):

Front Turret: 80/21.5
Front Superstructure: 75/15
Front Hull: 75/20 45
Side Turret: 60/0
Side Superstructure: 60/0
Side Hull: 60/0
Rear Turret: 60/0
Rear Superstructure:
Rear Hull: 40/31.5 0
Turret Top / Bottom: 40/10 15
Superstructure Top / Bottom: 26/90
Hull Top / Bottom: 26/90
Gun Mantlet: 80/0

 

[CharlesBronson]

Some variants over the Panther theme.

Panzerbeobachtungs Panther mit 5 cm Kwk, a proposal for the replacement of the most vulnerable Pz III and half-tracks used for the artillery correction task. Desing of November 1942, none completed.

Self propelled 128 (upper) and 105 mm howitzers over Panther components. Both mountings were "absetzbarer" ( dismountable) and capable to shoot from the ground. None reach the prototipe stage.

pics from "Panther variantz Osprey"

 

[Bf109_g]

So the Land-Water-Tractor was kind of like the American DUKW (Duck)?

 

[CharlesBronson]

Yea, but with greater mobility because the tracks, few were actually used.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

just how did they get the guns onto the ground? looks like arms lift it forward?

 

[HealzDevo]

Any more rare and crazy Panzer Projects? Thanks for the ones that are up there. Really enjoying seeing a lot of these paper and real-life projects.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Any more rare and crazy Panzer Projects? Thanks for the ones that are up there. Really enjoying seeing a lot of these paper and real-life projects

.

You got it.


Panzerspähwagen Schildkröte I, II und III


Three prototype four-wheeled amphibious armored cars - Schildkröte (Turtle) I, II and III were designed by Hans Trippel in 1941 and build by Trippelwerke at Molsheim in October of 1942.

The vehicles were powered by an 125 hp V8 Tatra air-cooled engine. It had good performance on the road and in the water being the Sch III the most powerful of the series with an 20 mm gun. This was not the Kwk 38 from the panzer but a an aeronautical MG-151/20 cannon.

Mg-151/20 with open sights.

However the requeriments for flotation ( an obvious characteristic in an amphibious vehicle) means that the armor was to be light with a maximum of 10 mm . The Waffeamnt did not like that characteristics and decide to not purchase the vehicle.

Schildkröte III in water.

Panzerspähwagen Trippel E3 / E3M

In 1943 and 1944, based on Schildkröte III, new Panzerspähwagen Trippel E3 (E = Einheits = Standard) series was built. Only three prototypes were build including single turretless E3M ammunition carrier. The armor was between 5.5-14.5mm In October of 1944, Waffenamt decided that such vehicles were not needed.

Turretless prototipe.

Pics from: Encyclopedia of German Tanks, Achtung Panzer !, Cañones y ametralladoras de la Luftwaffe.

 

[Matt308]

Nice.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Flakpanzer IV (3cm) Kugelblitz
(Ball Lightning

In April of 1944, plans were laid for the design that would be an effective defense against Allied fighter bombers, which proved to be very effective against German ground targets. It was proposed to build such vehicle based on Panzer IV Ausf H's proven chassis and armed with twin 30mm MK (MK - Maschinenkanon) 303 "Doppelflak" / "Brunn" guns (developed by Rheinmetall for Type XXI U-Boot to be installed on coning towers) mounted in fully closed sphere-like turret.Development of this project was given to both Rheinmetall and Daimler-Benz and production was planned to start in September 1944.


First improvised prototype by Daimler-Benz was mounted with modified U-Boot turret armed with two 30mm MK303 guns. It was tested but it didn't perform as expected and further development was to be continued. The additonal problem was that entire production of 30mm MK303 guns and turrets was reserved for the Kriegsmarine. Designers then decided to utilize older 30mm MK103/38 guns, which were used as armament for Henschel Hs 129 and Dornier Do 335 Pfeil (Arrow) airplanes.

Kugelblitz mocke-up.

The weapon was known to the Luftwaffe as the Jaboschreck (Fighter-bomber terror). In November of 1944, first real prototype was produced at Marienfelde and was tested and eventually production was to start in March of 1945 with 30 being produced monthly.

The height of this vehicle was only 2,3m

Only five chassis were obtained due to shortages by Daimler-Benz with sub-contractor Stahlindustrie. Daimler-Benz produced three and Stahlindustrie two were produced in February/March of 1945. Due to the war situation and cancellation of Panzer IV's production, only 2 to 5 prototypes were delivered in February/March of 1945 and assigned to Panzerflak Ersatz und Ausbildungs Abteilung (Anti-Aircraft Tank Training and Replacement Battalion) at Ohrdruf, but it is not knownif they saw any combat. Although, some sources state that all took part in the Battle for Berlin in April of 1945, where they were all lost.Kugelblitz was intended for use exclusively on the Western Front, where Allied Air Force was the biggest threat to the German Army.

Kugelblitz was operated by the crew of 5, protected by the armor thickness varying from 10mm to 80mm. The turret housed 3 men crew consisting of two gun operator (each sitting alongside the gun) and commander (sitting in the middle). The 3500kg turret had one entry/exit hatch (commander was last to enter and first to exit) and two smaller hatches for observation. It had manual traverse by hand of 14 degrees per second. Armored protection of the turret was only 20mm. The size and weight of the turret demanded that hulls were fitted with larger 1900mm rings from Tiger I.

With its low silhouette, high mobility (with maximum speed of 38km/h), great rate of fire (400 to 650 rounds per minute) and gun range (up to 5700 meters), Flakpanzer IV Kugelblitz would prove deadly to any enemy plane. Both guns were coupled together, but could be fired independently. The ammunition, known as Minengeschoss was belt-fed and more powerful than standard 30mm round, only three to four rounds were needed to shotdown any enemy plane. Its main drawback was its small ammunition storage allowing it to continue firing for only 90 seconds, while afterwards more ammunition was to be supplied by other vehicles.



This turret of a Kugelblitz is on display at the Lehrsammlung der Heeresflugabwehrschule in Rendsburg (Germany). It is the only remaining part of the handful of prototypes produced before the end of the war

 

[CharlesBronson]

Ughh....I rescue this thread from the deep bottom and you both start to post about the Sherman...?? .Why just dont create a topic of that tank and stop the off-topic in here.

 

[CharlesBronson]

'88' actually and the fact it had a hard time with the Jumbo's.

Easy then, go and open a "German 88mm against Jumbo Sherman" nice isnt.


------------------------



Especifications for Flakpanzer IV (3cm) Kugelblitz

Weight: 25000kg
Crew: 5 men
Engine: Maybach HL 120 TRM 112 / 12-cylinder / 300hp
Speed: 38km/h
Range: 200km
Lenght: 5.92m
Width: 2.95m
Height: 2.30m
Armament: 2 x 30mm MK103/38 7.92mm MG34
Ammo: 30mm - 1200 rounds
7.92mm - 900 rounds

Armor (mm/angle):

Front Turret: 30/round + 20/60
Front Superstructure: 80/10
Front Hull: 80/12
Side Turret: 20/round + 20/60
Side Superstructure: 30/0
Side Hull: 30/0
Rear Turret: 30/0
Rear Superstructure: 20/11
Rear Hull: 20/9
Turret Top / Bottom: 20/90
Superstructure Top / Bottom: 13/85-90
Hull Top / Bottom: 13/90

Caracteristics of the Rheinmetall-Borsig Maschinen Kanone MK-103:

Caliber: 30mm (30x184B)

Lenght: 2318mm

Weight: 146 kg.

Operation: gas assisted short recoil.

RoF: 360-420 rpm according ammo weight.

30 mm ammo caracteristics.

Bullet weight: between 390-460 grams.

Muzzle speed of the ammo:

Normal HE: 815 m/s

Minengesschoss HE: 900 m/s.

AP steel core ( panzergranate 39) 710 m/s.

AP tugsten core (Panzergranate 40) 960 m/s.


Normal He ammo:

Steel core incendiary ammo.

Panzergranate 40, the Kugelblitz might use this type of ammo for self defense against other tanks. The bullet can penetrate 65 mm homogeneus armor at 300 meters.

 

[Matt308]

I have a question for you tank experts. What was the typical accuracy of WWII tank and anti-tank cannon? From what I have read and the pics you guys are posting, it looks to be within a couple of minute-of-angle (MOA) [e.g. 1 MOA = 1in at 100yds, 6in at 600yds]. I've actually read of german commanders targeting barrels of KV-1/-2 to disable them. Fairy tale?

 

[CharlesBronson]

This topic is completely ruined, thanks soren and company.

 

[mkloby]

This topic is completely ruined, thanks soren and company.

I've been trying to find good information on the PzIIJ - I think that was the one that was about double the weight of the standard PzII. I believe that there were only 22 built - sent possibly to the east front? I can't find much about them though.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There you go Charles, they have there own thread to discuss whatever they want in.

 

[Matt308]

This topic is completely ruined, thanks soren and company.

Sorry CB. I contributed to that. My bad.