Rare Crazy Panzer Projekts.

[plan_D]

The Tiger's biggest impact was the fact it could kill anything it saw ...while actually having a chance of survival.

The biggest impact of the T-34 was it's vast numbers, which created a great combined hitting power of the armoured thrust.

No infantry man would enjoy coming up against the German massive machines ...but the bombers would love to have a go.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Agreed Pd.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Pictures of projeckted Flakpanzers:

Edited, check the updated info in mi latest post.

 

[Soren]

All penetration data is @ 100mm range on homogenised nickel/steel vertical plate

PzVI Tiger I Ausf E and Ausf L

hull 100mm @ 66°

superstructure 100mm @ 80°

mantlet 110mm max @ vertical

gun: 88mm L56 KwK36

armour penetration:

AP (PzGr39(late) 177 mm

APCR (PzGr40) 224 mm

Sherman Firefly

hull 51mm @ 45°

superstructure 51mm @ 34°

mantlet 89mm @ round

gun: 76.2 mm L58 QF 17 Pdr

armour penetration:

APCBC 179 mm

APDS 253 mm

IS2M

hull 120mm @ 60°

superstructure 120mm @ 30°

mantlet 100mm @ round

gun: 122 mm L46 D-25

armour penetration:

APHE 145 mm

HVAP 205 mm

HEAT 200 mm

M26 Pershing

hull 76mm @ 37°

superstructure 102mm @ 44°

mantlet 114mm @ round

gun: 90 mm L52

armour penetration: APCBC 270 mm

NB: The Tiger and Firefly often added applique armour and/or spare tracklinks effectively increasing armour protection, more so on the Firefly.

Hahahaha !!

The 90mm M3 certainly NEVER EVER penetrated 270mm of armor in ANY U.S. test(or any other for that matter), and certainly not with a APCBC round !

May I ask where you have obtained these "funny" figures ?

The Highest vertical armor penetration achieved by the 90mm M3 with its standard AP round is 189mm at 100y, far from that "ridiculous" figure you posted.

Also the 122mm D25-T never had HVAP rounds.

And those HE and APHE figures for the 122mm D25-T are totally ridiculous ! Those rounds would never exceed 120mm of armor penetration. (And thats against Russian armor)

Even with its best late war AP round, the 122mm D25-T would still highly struggle to penetrate over 200mm of vertical armor at a range of only 100m ! (A penetration performance which the 88mm Kwk43 could easely duplicate at 2000m)

 

[CharlesBronson]

Strange combo; panzer III/IV prototype towing a experimental armored infantry cubicle, that was supposed to provide effective infantry support in the most extreme muddy and snowy conditions.

 

[evangilder]

Interesting concept, but a hell of a target for a good grenade toss!

 

[Gnomey]

Interesting concept, but a hell of a target for a good grenade toss!

Agreed, or a well placed Bazooka or Tank Shell...

 

[evangilder]

That too.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Not much protection from aerial attack or even artillary attack either.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

Or rifle or SMG fire for that matter. Or LMG, MMG, HMG, Pistol, air-rifle, spud-gun....


All right Soren. I cannot say for sure that HVAP was used in IS2's, nor that APCBC was used in Pershings during WW2. (Those are post-war British-German figures IIRC)

And those HE and APHE figures for the 122mm D25-T are totally ridiculous !

I said HEAT, not HE and we discussed how crap APHE was before didn't we?


PlanD:

The Tiger's biggest impact was the fact it could kill anything it saw

With the exception of the Sherman Jumbo. 8)

The biggest impact of the T-34 was it's vast numbers, which created a great combined hitting power of the armoured thrust.

The T34 was also a technological marvel, why else would Germany want to copy it? Go on, admit it!

No infantry man would enjoy coming up against the German massive machines ...but the bombers would love to have a go.

Funkily enough, the Maus was extremely vulnerable to Molotov cocktails.

What dive-bomber in all honesty could carry a tallboy though?
- A well-placed 500lb could do it like PlanD said, also a M-13/RS-132 - though direct hits would be needed.

A moving target that size, even doing only 10+mph, with flak defense is really that easy?
- Then again it would be a priority target and obviously not in great numbers.


A turret similar to the Coelian turret, the KugelBlitz was mounted on a Pz38t (Hetzer type) tank. Also one was made with sloping armour.

This may be interesting to some of you? I have wanted to build a model of this in 1/76 scale.

Also the PantherII, an up-armoured Panther with KonigsTiger suspension, now resting at the Patton museum.

a good grenade toss!

Is that some form of extreme masturbation? - Sorry!

Agreed, or a well placed Bazooka or Tank Shell...

I doubt you could hit so small a target with a Bazooka?

 

[plan_D]

The Tiger could splatter the Sherman Jumbo, even with it's increased armour protection. And the T-34 was an excellent machine, but had the Germans really copied it - it would have been much better. For a start, better internal equipment and superior optics.

 

[CharlesBronson]

edited ( slightly wrong info, i will update later)

 

[schwarzpanzer]

You're right about the T34 PlanD. With German build quality, the cannon and ammunition would also be a lot better, but the German alloys were inferior to Russian ones.

The Tiger wouldn't have an easy time against the Jumbo's armour, or the Churchil VI onwards for that matter.

 

[Soren]

Thats not true Schwarzpanzer.

German as-well British ammunition was the best in the world throughout WWII, it was the hardest, best in quality and strongest ammunition available, and thats a damn fact. The Tiger would have no problem what so ever penetrating the Jumbo's armour!

 

[schwarzpanzer]

That's what I said Soren!

Thinking about it though, German ammo wasn't that good;

Often being made by slaves and saboteurs as it was...

Also with no manganese and Tungsten...

APHE PzGr was also a bad design...

The Jumbo was almost impervious to frontal attack, equal or even better than the KingTiger!! - though like the Churchill, lacking in offensive power.

 

[delcyros]

All very interesting, gents. The use of tungsten and manganese for projectiles is according to the situation of ressources a pure waste. This is true for all involved nations. Think of how many engines could have been made by saving these ressources...
A projectile body with hardened steel nose (AP-cap) and softer lower body would have a reduced armor piercing capability (but not by that much) but the spared ressources a worth it.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

Hi delcyros,

Germany always had enough Tungsten for machining work (lathes etc), just none left over for APCR/APFDS.

I'd say that you can't go far enough in terms of technology/quality/materials. Think of the soldiers lives! There is still a debate as to why not all Shermans should have been upgraded to Firefly spec.

Giving your soldiers cheap and ineffective weapons unsurprisingly makes them resent it. Would you be happy to be cannon-fodder, a pawn? Would you do it to those fighting for you if you were in charge?

 

[delcyros]

The lack in materials like tungsten and manganese are responsible for dropping the Jumo-222 in 1941/42. Had they produced this engine, the Ju-288 would became standart bomber of the Luftwaffe and I considere this plane as the best medium bomber of ww2. It did not, so older and inferior planes had to fullfill their role till wars end (Ju-88, He-111).
The lack of tungsten and manganese also led to those problems with the Jumo-004B jet engines regarding their reliability (with enough manganese and chromium the original Jumo-004A could have been produced, this engine was very reliable and had more thrust output) from 1943 on. The need to invent new alloys delayed the engine development a lot.
But I can understand your argument considering the man to serve on the front. However, sometimes strategical thoughts are necessary.
( in case of the Sherman a lot fewer could be send to europe if all were upgraded to Firefly because of the limits in transportation ships. Otherwise the time to deploy the numbers would have been higher, the suczessive DDay beeing delayed. What do you think would cost more men?)

 

[schwarzpanzer]

Did it use Tungsten in it's actual construction?

The Firefly would not have been such an advantage for DDay (like you said, a logistical disavantage if anything), but after the landings the advantages would have been huuge.

It was beurocracy and perverted patriotism (NIH) then, like the SA80 is now.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Are we talking about proyects in here or what ?

Here I found another pic of the german armored trolley, this towed by a Stug III, seems an action photo.