Rare Crazy Panzer Projekts.

[Trautloft]

no. the Ganz factory been bombed in summer of 1944 and the prototype and the facilities aswell,been destroyed. at the end of '44 the whole tank-manufacturing stopped. The rest of factories couldnt produce either,because of the lack of materials. btw until the 80's, a very few knew about the whole project.it was told ,its a legend only (also because of the 40yrs of comminusm and censorship). later, using czech sources and documentaries, the historicans found prooves .
i post more accurate data next week, a few things:
the similarities to T-34 and Panther are obvious,as many of you noticed.
It chains been almost as wide as the Panthers,and the free distance between the ground and the chassis aswell(sorry i dont know this word).
The frontal armors degree been 30° like the T-34/76 (Panther's been 35° if im right). The tower/turret looks similar from the side-view of the Panther,its a bit shorter tho,mainly because of the chopped backside.On frontal view its also similar but wider,and the cannon-shield is thicker.
Apartof the mixed looking,its structure is typical hungarian.The relatively big engine room covered two, 260HP a part engines,which been operateable seperate aswell. Armor been thick,frontal 120mm,turret 50mm,the rest 20mm.
The prototype had one 75mm,43M length cannon,with synchronized 8mm machine gun,and another 8mm Mg on front. The planned serie recieved a better gun, a 80mm,44M cannon. Crew should be 5,max.speed 45km/h.

to be continued

 

[HealzDevo]

So this is the T-Panther is it? (Joking combination of T-34 and Panther). Looks interesting. So this is a missing link between the T-34 and the Panther or is this more correctly a Panther II?

 

[Trautloft]

Healz,none of these.i didn't misspelled the 80mm 44M cannon, not the 88 of the tigg.
It used the frightening experiences made with the first contacts of the great ammounts of T-34's,which suddently made any used armoured vehicles used by the hungarians obsolete and vulnerable.Also the advantages of the great Panther, but all of these with hungarian specs,like the engines,the suspension.They had great influence on it,but it isnt simply a mix.its just like as people say 'the panther is a copy of the t-34' which is simply incorrect.So its not that simple to call it T-Panther,even if its a funny point

 

[Trautloft]

a few new pics and data.
Another very important hungarian built vehicle been the Rába Botond multi-role offroad truck,which been superb even to the Opel Blitz.
In 1936 Dezsö Winkler started design work on a specialised cross-country truck that could fulfil the roles of a weapons prime mover and a mechanised infantry transport. This new truck was named the Botond and featured two rear driving axles on independent coil spring and balancing beam suspension allowing it to cross the most difficult terrain.They were used to transport motorised infantry and tow heavy weapons including the 37mm 36M, 40mm 40M, 50mm 38M and the 75mm 40M guns. It was also used on occasion from 1943 to tow 105mm howitzers.Both named vehicles been capable to consume both gasoline and petrol fuel.
38M Botond (38/42M Botond)
Horsepower: 65hp (70hp)
Range: 380km
Crew: 1 driver
Passengers: 14 in rear, 1 in front next to driver
Top Speed: 60km/h
Transport weight: 1.5-ton
Towing weight: 1 to 2-ton
Number produced: approximately 700

The 41M Rába tower had a weight of 9700kg with 3000kg transport weight
Horsepower:115HP ,8000ccm3
Max.Speed: 56km/h, average fuel consume 50-60litres/100km
Crew: 1+11 persons

The Csaba armoured car's specs:

Crew 3
Weight 5950kg
Armor 9mm
Length 4.52m
Width 2.1m
Height 2.27m
Ground Clearance 33.3cm
Track 1.7m
Weapons 8mm MG or 20mm Cannon
Engine German Ford, 8cyl, 90hp, 3560cc
Transmission 4 x 4, 5 forward, 5 reverse
Performance 65 km/hr
Range 150 km
Gradient 30 degrees
Vertical Obstacle .5m
Fording Depth 1 meter
Armament 20mm 36m cannon, 34/37A M 8mm MG.
Ammunition 200 rounds 20mm; 3,000 rounds 8mm
Fuel 135 liters
Radio R-4

The Turán medium tank's specs,and the project of Turán III tank-hunter:

Crew 5
Weight Turan I - 40,131 lbs
Turan II - 40,792 lbs
Length Turan I - 18.64'
Turan II - 18'7"
Width : Turan I - 8.33'
Turan II - 8'4"
Height : Turan I - 7.64'
Turan II - 7'7"
Armament: Turan I - 40mm
Turan II - 75mm MAVAG Model 41M howitzer, 25 calibres.
1 x Danuvia 34/40M 8mm MG
Performance : 29.19mph
Engine : Manfred Weisz , V8, water-cooled, 250 gallons - gasoline, 260hp
Armor .55" - 1.97" (15 - 50mm)
Ground clearance : Turan II - 14.82"
Ground pressure : Turan II - 0.83 kg/sq cm
Power/Weight ratio : Turan II - 14.3 hp/ton
Transmission : 6 forward, 6 reverse
Range : 102 miles
Gradient :40%
Fording Depth :35.1'
Verticle Obstacle: 31'2
Suspension : Wheels: (2) 4-wheel bogie units each side; 1 paired.
Return: 5 rollers each side; rear idler wheel
Track: 202cm long; 42cm wide

frontal view of Turán II

Turán I crossing a river

Turán II crossing a river

Turán II with side armor plates

Turán III anti-tank vehicle,only2 prototypes built
a promising plan ,fitted with 75mm 43M cannon

 

[Trautloft]

The Zrinyi assault gun and its specs
Crew 4
Weight 21,600kg
Length 5.68m
Width 2.99m
Height 2.33m
Armament 105mm MAVAG 40/43M howitzer, 20.5 calibres, Muzzle velocity: 448 m/sec. 1 x 8mm Danuvia 34/40 MG.
Performance 43 km/hr
Engine Manfred Weisz , V8, water-cooled, 445 liters - gasoline, 260hp
Armor 13 - 75mm
Ground clearance 38cm
Ground pressure .91 kg/sq cm
Transmission 6 forward, 6 reverse
Range 220 km
Gradient 45%
Fording Depth .9m
Verticle Obstacle .8m

rear view. i posted a few frontals and side views already i think

structure of Zrinyi assault gun

a few rare,interesting pictures:

Zrinyi in Kubinka Museum

a colored,current picture of Nimrod AA/AT in Budapest
specs of Nimrod:
Crew 5
Weight 10.7 tons
Length 5.29m
Width 2.31m
Height 2.99m
Armament Bofors 40 ItK 38 40mm (L/60) automatic cannon
Performance 35km/hour
Engine VIII EST 107, 8-cylinder, gasoline, water-cooled,150 hp
Range 300 miles

Nimrod graphic

Nimrod disguised

a 100% post-war picture taken of Toldi I light tank during a presentation.watch the white falcon painted on turret and side. i don't understand the german marking tho.

a captured ex-Soviet M3 Honey in hungarian use

german amphibious tank-project basing on p38(t) for Operation Seelöwe

 

[CharlesBronson]

Nice pics, here other projekt with Panther backgrounds.


VK1602 Leopard

Since 1941, plans were made for the development of a new reconnaisance tank based on PzKpfw II Ausf J (VK 1601). In March of 1942, MIAG and Daimler-Benz received orders to build a fast (medium/heavy) reconnaisance tank, designed to operate under heavy combat conditions - Gefechtsaufklarung. MIAG was to construct the chassis, while Daimler-Benz was construct the turret. Both were to be designed and ready for production by October of 1942.The main purpose of this vehicle was to be at HQ tank platoons in Panzer units.

Two versions were proposed, "Leopard (leicht)" lightly armored fast version (18ton) and "Leopard (schwer)" heavily armored one (26ton). The light version was quickly dropped in the Summer of 1942, in favour of the heavier one.Design of VK 1602, named Leopard was based on the development of previous projects such as PzKpfw II Ausf J (VK 1601) and PzKpfw II Ausf M (VK 1301).

Light Leopard.

Its hull was similar to that of PzKpfw II Ausf J (VK 1601), but was largely influenced by PzKpfw V Panther, which was still being developed at the time. Its suspension was made up of interleaved road wheels similar to PzKpfw II Ausf L - Luchs. It was planned that Leopard would eventually replace lighter (leichter) PanzerSpahwagen II Ausf L Luchs - Sd.Kfz.123 (VK 1303).Mock-up was ready in May/June of 1942 and first prototype was to be finished by the September 1st of 1942. Full scale production was to start in April of 1943.

Heavy Leopard.

Leopard's armament consisted of 50mm KwK 39/1 L/60 and 7.92mm MG34/42 in newly designed small turret. It was also planned to use 75mm KwK 41 gun. VK 1602's was heavily armored and had well sloped frontal armor (influenced by Panther). Leopard was to be powered by Maybach HL157P engine with total power 550hp which allowed VK 1602 to travel at maximum speed of 50-60km/h. In order to improve its cross-country ability, 350mm wide tracks were used. It was to be operated by the crew of four men. "Panzerprogramm 41" made provisions to build 339 Leopards (105 by December 1943 and further 150 by mid 1944). The start of production was previously planned for April of 1943, but the entire production was cancelled in January of 1943, when the first prototype was still incomplete. The reason for cancellation was its heavy weight and lack of heavy armament which made the vehicle vulnerable to enemy tanks. Also the fact of Leopard being similar to Panther pointed out that reconnaissance Panther can be developed and produced at lower cost.

 

[HealzDevo]

So the heavy leopard was dropped because it was seen as useless and too heavy... I wonder whether the Maus and the Ratte would have similarly been dropped as too heavy, too useless and too expensive...

 

[CharlesBronson]

The ratte was discarded, The Maus....well I guess that the friendship between Doktor Porsche and Hitler influenced in the actual fabrication of this crazy tank.

 

[HealzDevo]

So the Maus would have been made, despite the fact that they may as well have painted a bulls-eye and broadcast its position by radio to every Allied bomber and fighter in the area?

 

[plan_D]

"Would have been made"? The Maus WAS made! There's one in Kubinka - although the Soviets did have to reassemble it from two Maus.

 

[HealzDevo]

So they might have continued on with the Maus, a tank that they might as well have painted bright colours with a standing out bulls-eye and broadcast its position by radio in plainspeak to every Allied fighter and bomber in the area?

 

[plan_D]

Well, since it was made and ready to use - yes, I guess they would. And I'm sure, just for you, they'd have painting it bright pink with a big white marker that said "Bomb here, you yankee devils" underneath. And Hitler would wear a hat not unlike Napoleons and ride the Maus right into paris.

That's my counter-factual.

 

[HealzDevo]

Yes, but still I suppose such a tank if you could rig it up to be remote-controlled might serve a useful purpose, as a magnet for every Allied fighter and bomber to go after...

 

[Henk]

No, what a waste of time, money, equipment and great minds. I would rather focus on more usefull equipment and use the manpower to build more machines and the money to build more aircraft and oh yes not think bigger is always better. "How bigger they are the harder they fall".

 

[CharlesBronson]

So the Maus would have been made

If you just took the work to browse some of the early pages of this topic you ll see more data on Maus and pictures of it.


-----------------------------



VersuchsKetten VK601 602 ( Panzer 1 neuer art ausf C)

On September 15th 1939 the ordnance department was given the order to get a light reconnaissance tank developed. The company of Krauss-Maffei in Munich was responsible for making the chassis while Daimler-Benz got the responsibility for superstructure and turret. The project was known as VK601 or better known as Panzerkampfwagen I Na Ausf.C.

The engine in the proto was the Maybach HL45P with 150 metric hp, giving the vehicle a maximum speed of 65km/h.The tank commander/gunner had 8 periscopes in a tiny cuppola.

The appearance of the Ausf.C was completely different from the previous Ausf.A and B. Additionally the armor thickness was significantly improved.

The crew of two men had as main armament a heavy machinegun EW141 machinegun and a coaxial MG34.

There is a lot of mistakes in the websites when describing the EW-141. Some say it was a 13mm gun some even describe it as a 20 mm cannon.

Actually this was a 7,92mm caliber Mauser desing originally called "MG-141" , the EW just mean "Einbauwaffe" or emplacement gun. This recoil operated MG used large the cartrigdes of the Pzb 38 39 antiarmor rifles, the machinegun had a 600rpm rate of fire and a muzzle velocity of 1180 m/s and could penetrate 26 mm of armor up to 100 meters in a vertical plate. So in that way the ausf C had a limited antitank capacity.

Mauser Ew 141 heavy MG.

The weight was 8,1 tons, a length of 4.19m, width 1.92m and height of 2.01m. The power to weight ratio of 18.2hp/t was remarkable, which was one of the reasons for the high speed. With a length of 2.2m where track touches ground and a track width of 39cm resulted in a ground pressure of 0.46 kg/cm2. The track had 89 single track links, . The VK601 was able to wade up to 78.5cm deep, pass over 1.2m wide trenches and could climb 30cm high obstacles.

Before production some changes were introduced , including a some dry pin tracks wich have less mantainance that the lubricated ones. Also a more powerful engine HL61 was installed. bThe vehicle was now denominated VK602.

40 Panzer I Ausf.C were produced between July of 1942 and april 1943, of which two were delivered to 1st panzer division early in 1943 and troop tested in Russia.


The remaining 38 vehicles were taken to reserve units of the LVIII Panzer reserve Korps in France. Those came in action in 1944 in the battles in the Normandy.


Pz ausf 1 c in France , june 1944. The guns had a muzzle cover

 

[HealzDevo]

Looks like that was an interesting German tank.

 

[Civettone]

Does anyone have data on the amounts of metals used on German tanks. These are usually provided by Datenblatten. I have one of the Pz IVF but it doesn't mean much when you cannot compare.


Kris

 

[CharlesBronson]

Looks like that was an interesting German tank.

It was.

VK601, pz 1 ausf C.

Does anyone have data on the amounts of metals used on German tanks. These are usually provided by Datenblatten. I have one of the Pz IVF but it doesn't mean much when you cannot compare.

Try this site.

Achtung Panzer! - Additional Information !

 

[CharlesBronson]

Panzerbeobachtungwagen Panther:

Until 1943 the advanced artillery observers were doing his work from armored cars and light halftracks, that vehicles had a very low survivality in the battlefield . A more heavy and well protected panzer was needed.

The Panther Beobachtungwagen (Artillery observation vehicle) was proposed to this task, it had a modified turret mounting wooden dummy gun and ball-mounted 7.92mm MG34. Mounted with additional observation devices designed by the firm Anschutz ( today famous for his small caliber high presition rifles and CO2 guns) wich includes map tables optical rangefinders and goniometric measuring devices. Also it had a more powerful Fug radio equipment and other designed to talk with aicrafts.

Although no combat photo of a Panther Beo was know the german sources claimed that 41 were converted from Panthers returned for repairs in late 1944/45 and used in both fronts.

Profiles from. Panther variants, Jentz/Doyle Osprey Military.

Panther Variants in Color, Waldemar Trojka, kagero Militaria.

Panther, Armor At War series, Anderson/wai, Concord Publishing.

 

[Civettone]

It was.

VK601, pz 1 ausf C.

Try this site.

Achtung Panzer! - Additional Information !

No good. Best site around but can't find the information I'm looking for. Most information I find is about the cost price which is not very useful information.

Btw, was that Pz Ic the ultra-armoured Pz I variant, or was that another one?
Kris