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Rare Crazy Panzer Projekts.
- Thread starter CharlesBronson
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #222
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Thank you very much Adler, is nice to see a fast moderator in here.
Let see:
VK1601 (panzer II ausf J )
The VersuchsKetten 1601 (experimental fully tracked vehicle 16 tons model 01) was a tank slightly based on the Panzer II. The object was to improve the armor and therefore the survivality in the battefield. In order to do so the frontal armor was 80 mm and 50 mm in the side hull /turret. This tank copied the crew layout in the Pz II , with an Tank commander/gunner/ loader, radio operator and driver.
The delopment for an "0" series was issued in december 1939, development of the chassis was entrusted ton MAN and the turret went to Daimler-Benz. The fisrt VK1601 was completed in June 1940.
This tank had an interleaved suspension of similar desing to the prototipe "VK901" but more strongly built in order to support the aditional weight. The hull and the superestructure was buil as one unit ( A departure from the german practice up to this time wich was a bolted superestructure.)
In total 22 VK1601 were manufactured between April - December 1942, The "ausf J" designation was a extraoficial one used mostly by the soldiers. The armament being a 20 mm automatic KwK 38 gun and a 7,92mm MG-34 with 2150 AP bullets. The turret was traversible only by hand.
Bergenpanzer II ausf J.
Seven VK 1601 (Ausf J) were issued to 12th Panzer Division, which was fighting on the Eastern Front. In 1944, one of them was converted into a recovery vehicle - Bergepanzer II Ausf J. Later on in 1944/45, the same vehicle served with Panzer Werkstatt Kompanie (Tank Repair Company) of 116th Panzer Division.
HealzDevo
Staff Sergeant
I don't think it was totally off topic as it is rare and crazy Panzer projects so comparing it with the Sherman Jumbo and other Allied tanks that they are likely to come across has some validity. For my part I wonder how that floating Panzer would have done against targets such as the T-34 or the IS-2 in combat considering that a likely theatre of operations was in the Eastern Front against the Soviets, or alternatively how it would have done against the Shermans, Churchills and other tanks in a Normandy style invasion of Britain in 1944...
mkloby
Senior Master Sergeant
Excellent thanks charles!
- Thread starter
- #225
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
You re welcome.
Not fair comparative, an amphibius armored car against Medium/heavy tanks
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Alkett-Raümgerät
This strange AFV was found by the Soviet troops at Kummersdorf proving grounds in 1945 and was then stored at the Soviet military base in Dresden. In 1947, it was delivered to Kubinka proving grounds for tests together with other German AFVs. The tests could not be completed because the minesweeping mechanisms of the mineroller were badly damaged during the transportation and only movement and tactical tests were made. The design was the joint project by Alkett, Krupp and Mercedes-Benz and construction was finished in early 1942.
Front side.
The appearance of this AFV was very strange and unusual. The vehicle's body was mounted on the heavy gun frame with the cabin containing the fighting compartment, engine and the turret from PzKpfw I armed by the two MG-34 machine guns for close defense. The body armor was 20 to 40mm thick. The bottom had to withstand the explosive power of mines and was 80mm thick. There were inside armor plates in this AFV. Turning the mineroller was done by the small steering wheel placed in the rear part of the body.
Rear side.
Driving was done by turning of the steering wheel and via the gear selector The wheels were mounted with 75mm wide brake shoes that were controlled directly from the fighting compartment. The moving parts of this mineroller were caterpillar trucks with shoe pads fixed onto the driving wheels. They were similar to those used on wheels of the German heavy field guns in the WWI. The explosives theoretically could not damage those pads. The tests showed that the weight of this AFV, its low speed and height made an easy target for enemy artillery. This AFV was constructed under the influence of high panzer losses on the Soviet minefields. It was to go before the tanks in the offensive operations. It appears that the designers understood that this AFV was useless in comparison with the ordinary tanks mounted with mineplows and was abandoned at the proving grounds. Today Alkett-Raümgerät can be seen in the Museum of Armored Forces in Kubinka in Russia.
HealzDevo
Staff Sergeant
Looks like something that belongs in BF2142 by EA/Dice rather than a WW2 piece of equipment that tracked one. How do you think the Panzer II Ausf J would have done against Allied Armor on the battlefield that it was likely to meet when it became operational in 1942?
- Thread starter
- #227
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
It would be like a German "Matilda"....with great survivality in the battlefield due his heavy armor but with a weak main gun....with no chances to penetrate anything heavier tan a T-26/T-60 or an "Honey" tank.
HealzDevo
Staff Sergeant
Ah, okay. Interesting to know. Thanks for that information.
- Thread starter
- #229
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
A pretty weird Panther.
This vehicle used large natural gas tanks instead the normal petrol fuel. The tank was used for a replacement and intruction Panzer driver unit, the reason for his different tipe of feeding was obvious, to save the always scarce B4.
This vehicle used large natural gas tanks instead the normal petrol fuel. The tank was used for a replacement and intruction Panzer driver unit, the reason for his different tipe of feeding was obvious, to save the always scarce B4.
schwarzpanzer
Senior Airman
- 662
- Aug 8, 2005
Nice info, as always CB.
That Panther with the gas bottles - I've seen a Konigstiger with those before, not a Panther though IIRC.8)
Also, the Kugelblitz turret was experimentally fitted to a Pz38t chassis - never seen pics of that though.
That Panther with the gas bottles - I've seen a Konigstiger with those before, not a Panther though IIRC.8)
Also, the Kugelblitz turret was experimentally fitted to a Pz38t chassis - never seen pics of that though.
- Thread starter
- #231
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
You re welcome, here a Marder with that system:
It remember me some cars that used also gas in here to move. ( because is cheaper than the liquid fuel )
There was also another mean of gas wich was named "Holzgas" and obtained from the wood, but it requires a heavier instalation and gave less HPs in turn.
It remember me some cars that used also gas in here to move. ( because is cheaper than the liquid fuel )
There was also another mean of gas wich was named "Holzgas" and obtained from the wood, but it requires a heavier instalation and gave less HPs in turn.
- Thread starter
- #232
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Grille 12 fur 12,8 cm K-43. (Panther chassis)
This was another atemp to create a heavy self propelled gun using the Panther wheelbase. The Kanone 43 was a double use gun that could shot armor piercing ammo and long range HE shells.
The gun mounting and shield was desmountable ( thing wich contribute to made the desing even more complicate) . None were completed and the projekt was cancelled in 1944.
This was another atemp to create a heavy self propelled gun using the Panther wheelbase. The Kanone 43 was a double use gun that could shot armor piercing ammo and long range HE shells.
The gun mounting and shield was desmountable ( thing wich contribute to made the desing even more complicate) . None were completed and the projekt was cancelled in 1944.
HealzDevo
Staff Sergeant
That was fascinating those gas powered tanks. Would be a bit impractical in the field though due to the ease of arming at the gas tanks. Natural gas is very flamable isn't it?
Trautloft
Airman
The hungarian heavy tank-project Tas
http://www.haditechnika.hu/Archivum/199301/P11/09.jpg
Let me explain the importance of these attempts of the Hungarian Army a bit first.
Although Hungary didn't play a very significant role in WW2 because of its unfortunate politics,extreme pressure of 3.Reich and the neighbour countries surrounding him,and obsolete equipment,as a hungarian i pay my tribute to the brave men who fought and died.
Hungary's heavy industry wasn't developed at all,and the german supplies weren't equaling the suffered losses nor the requirements to fight with success.We know alot about soviet,german or allied armored vehicles, but maybe Hungary's efforts might interest you as a unique,rare topic.
Hungary bought or recieved before and during the war equipment which been declared obsolete for german use.In numbers:
before 1939: 150 Ansaldo Tankettes ,mainly CV33
1939: 15-20polish TKS ,2 T-11 light czech tanks,3 Renault R-35 light tanks
1940: 1 T-21 czech tank
1942: 8 Pz. I ,4-8 Pz. II ,5 Marder II.,108 p38(t) Czech tanks,10 Pz. IIIM, 22 Pz. IVF1 ,10 Pz. IVF2 , 10 StuG III. , 15 Hotchkiss light tanks,2 Somua S-35
1944: 10-12 Pz.IIIM, 12-30 pz.IVH ,50 StuG G,5-10 Panthers and 12 Pz.VI.E
1945: the real deliveries unknown, planned been 30 Pz. IV.H and 75 Hetzers.
I still'd like to tell you about hungarian built vehicles,which been used
during WW2 and the plans about future.
Hungary had to equip 3 Armies,so own production had to run up.
There are a few sources on internet about the major types built and used like the Toldi light tank.Toldi was based on the Landswerk 60 tank made in Sweden. It had good movement abilites, highly sloped armour and very good optical instruments for observation and fire guidance. Hungarians installed 20mm gun and 8mm AA machinegun.Certainly it prroved to be hapless against the T-34.At all 190 been built.
The Nimrod was designed as a tank-killer and AA,but its 40mm gun,despite its high rate of fire coulnt penetrate the thick armor of soviet counterparts.135 of these been produced.
The backbone of hungarian armored troops been the 40M Turán tank,279 of the light (version I with a 40mm cannon) and 180 of its heavier version (version II with 75mm gun)been built ,based on the design of the Škoda T-21 medium tank prototye.Despite the improvement, the relatively low velocity of the projectile was unable to pierce the frontal armor of a T-34, except at point blank range. The T-34s main gun could penetrate the Turan's 50 mm of armor at a much greater distance.
Aside from tank production, the chassis was the basis for an assault gun. Called the Zrinyi II, this weapon mounted a 105 mm short gun which poked through the front plate of the hull, and lacked the all around traverse turret of the battle tanks. Only 40 examples of this useful weapon were produced(i found this sentence on wikipedia,it writes 60 but the correct number is 40). The only other vehicles known based on this chassis were the Turan III and the Zrinyi I, both of which used the German 75mmL43 tank gun (which armed the Pz. IV). Both vehicles were produced as prototypes only, as the Hungarian Army were supplied with German armored vehicles.The Zrinyi's had successes against smaller soviet tank formations,as tunk hunters or self-propelled guns they were equal to the StuG's or the Italian Semoventes.
They been still unavailable in numbers which could have a real influence to slow down the red rush.
Hungary also built 93 Csaba armoured cars,which been mainly used for scouting missions.This 39M Csaba's been a very nice construction.
here a few pics:
Axis History Factbook: Gallery: Vehicles (Hungary)
back to Tas..it been a promising plan to build a heavy tank to match not only the superb T-34(85) but the -at that time already numerous-heavy tanks like KV-85 or Joszif Stalin 2's.
The result been the Tas heavy tank
http://www.freeweb.hu/gamma21/Tasvazlat.gif
The request been made in mid.'43, mostly basing on the T-34 and the Panther. The prototype been ready to roll in may'44,but production never started anymore.
I have an article about it, with more pics,if you are interested, i scan them and describe its specs and details
http://www.haditechnika.hu/Archivum/199301/P11/09.jpg
Let me explain the importance of these attempts of the Hungarian Army a bit first.
Although Hungary didn't play a very significant role in WW2 because of its unfortunate politics,extreme pressure of 3.Reich and the neighbour countries surrounding him,and obsolete equipment,as a hungarian i pay my tribute to the brave men who fought and died.
Hungary's heavy industry wasn't developed at all,and the german supplies weren't equaling the suffered losses nor the requirements to fight with success.We know alot about soviet,german or allied armored vehicles, but maybe Hungary's efforts might interest you as a unique,rare topic.
Hungary bought or recieved before and during the war equipment which been declared obsolete for german use.In numbers:
before 1939: 150 Ansaldo Tankettes ,mainly CV33
1939: 15-20polish TKS ,2 T-11 light czech tanks,3 Renault R-35 light tanks
1940: 1 T-21 czech tank
1942: 8 Pz. I ,4-8 Pz. II ,5 Marder II.,108 p38(t) Czech tanks,10 Pz. IIIM, 22 Pz. IVF1 ,10 Pz. IVF2 , 10 StuG III. , 15 Hotchkiss light tanks,2 Somua S-35
1944: 10-12 Pz.IIIM, 12-30 pz.IVH ,50 StuG G,5-10 Panthers and 12 Pz.VI.E
1945: the real deliveries unknown, planned been 30 Pz. IV.H and 75 Hetzers.
I still'd like to tell you about hungarian built vehicles,which been used
during WW2 and the plans about future.
Hungary had to equip 3 Armies,so own production had to run up.
There are a few sources on internet about the major types built and used like the Toldi light tank.Toldi was based on the Landswerk 60 tank made in Sweden. It had good movement abilites, highly sloped armour and very good optical instruments for observation and fire guidance. Hungarians installed 20mm gun and 8mm AA machinegun.Certainly it prroved to be hapless against the T-34.At all 190 been built.
The Nimrod was designed as a tank-killer and AA,but its 40mm gun,despite its high rate of fire coulnt penetrate the thick armor of soviet counterparts.135 of these been produced.
The backbone of hungarian armored troops been the 40M Turán tank,279 of the light (version I with a 40mm cannon) and 180 of its heavier version (version II with 75mm gun)been built ,based on the design of the Škoda T-21 medium tank prototye.Despite the improvement, the relatively low velocity of the projectile was unable to pierce the frontal armor of a T-34, except at point blank range. The T-34s main gun could penetrate the Turan's 50 mm of armor at a much greater distance.
Aside from tank production, the chassis was the basis for an assault gun. Called the Zrinyi II, this weapon mounted a 105 mm short gun which poked through the front plate of the hull, and lacked the all around traverse turret of the battle tanks. Only 40 examples of this useful weapon were produced(i found this sentence on wikipedia,it writes 60 but the correct number is 40). The only other vehicles known based on this chassis were the Turan III and the Zrinyi I, both of which used the German 75mmL43 tank gun (which armed the Pz. IV). Both vehicles were produced as prototypes only, as the Hungarian Army were supplied with German armored vehicles.The Zrinyi's had successes against smaller soviet tank formations,as tunk hunters or self-propelled guns they were equal to the StuG's or the Italian Semoventes.
They been still unavailable in numbers which could have a real influence to slow down the red rush.
Hungary also built 93 Csaba armoured cars,which been mainly used for scouting missions.This 39M Csaba's been a very nice construction.
here a few pics:
Axis History Factbook: Gallery: Vehicles (Hungary)
back to Tas..it been a promising plan to build a heavy tank to match not only the superb T-34(85) but the -at that time already numerous-heavy tanks like KV-85 or Joszif Stalin 2's.
The result been the Tas heavy tank
http://www.freeweb.hu/gamma21/Tasvazlat.gif
The request been made in mid.'43, mostly basing on the T-34 and the Panther. The prototype been ready to roll in may'44,but production never started anymore.
I have an article about it, with more pics,if you are interested, i scan them and describe its specs and details
- Thread starter
- #236
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Not as flammable as liquid fuel but very explosive, yes it was only for training duty, no german commander was mad enough to send one of this into battle.
Interesting...it looks like a mini Panther.
Trautloft
Airman
sure,since the engineers took the t-34 and the panther as example.if mini,im not sure,its length for example been exactly of the t-34's,a few centimeter longer even.
watch the design of the wheels,its also rare.
so it seems like i aint boring the hell outta you if i post more. okies.
last week my windows said goodbye,and i lost everything,i have to install the driver of my scanner.next week i gonna post it
watch the design of the wheels,its also rare.
so it seems like i aint boring the hell outta you if i post more. okies.
last week my windows said goodbye,and i lost everything,i have to install the driver of my scanner.next week i gonna post it
Trautloft
Airman
a few more pics of hungarian built armoured vehicles.i hope uploading works by now,im noob lol.
Csaba armoured car
Csaba command-cars
Nimrod AA/AC
Toldi I light tank in action
Toldi II
Toldi II in colour
Turán I in colour
Turán II ,the 'heavy' version . no chance against T-34 tho
Tas project
Tas tank-killer, a very interesting plan building a self-propelled gun/hunter on the Tas chassis
Csaba armoured car
Csaba command-cars
Nimrod AA/AC
Toldi I light tank in action
Toldi II
Toldi II in colour
Turán I in colour
Turán II ,the 'heavy' version . no chance against T-34 tho
Tas project
Tas tank-killer, a very interesting plan building a self-propelled gun/hunter on the Tas chassis
Henk
Master Sergeant
Nice info and pics Trautloft.
Yep, the Tas looks interesting, did it ever progress beyond the prototype stage?
