RLM 83 DK Green/LT Green??

Discussion in 'Painting Questions, Tutorials and Guidebooks' started by javlin, Jan 16, 2010.

  1. javlin

    javlin Well-Known Member

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  2. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    I've always thought of RLM83 as dark green. I just looked at Merrick's and then Ullmann's chips and they are both dark green.
    Steve
     
  3. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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  4. kgambit

    kgambit Active Member

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    You might try reading this:


    Late-War Luftwaffe Fighter Camouflage - Part Three
    Commentary on the Evolution and Usage of Luftwaffe RLM Colours 81, 82 83
    By David E. Brown

    here's the link: Luftwaffe Late War Fighter Camouflage - Part Three

    Quotes from the article:

    1) No official documents have been discovered which link RLM 83 with the colour name "Dunkelgrün". However, Hitchcock (1983, p.13) states: "Color 83 has been officially recorded as 'green.' " but fails to identify the source, date and context of this official record. The relationship of "83" to the descriptive name "Dunkelgrün" is interpretive, and based on photographs, crash reports, wreckage fragments, etc. (Smith and Creek, 1994, p.247; Smith and Gallaspy, 1977, pp.96, 100, 124-125, 129, 134, 13-137)).

    2) From the data, the name "Dunkelgrün" was assigned to no less than four defined colours; first to RLM 71 in 1937 and later in 1944 to RLM 81, 82 and 83. There is no question that the RLM designated 71 as Dunkelgrün, but did it also do the same for the remaining three colours? Given the RLM's past history and actions, the evidence strongly suggests that it did not.

    That being said, I've always taken RLM 83 as dark green as well and in addition to Steve's links, I have at least three more that also show RLM 83 as a dark green.

    Interestingly, the ONE source that shows both a Green FS 34138 and Dark Green FS 34083 color for RLM 83 is the IPMS stockholm color chart.

    Link: Color Reference Charts -  Germany
     
  5. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #5 Wurger, Jan 16, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2010
    The quotation above seems to be nothing more but a discussion on the colour name only.The "Dunkelgrün" name can be used for a range of these dark green colours. But their correct tonalities is different of course. It seems that the FS system is better at giving a correct code for tonalities. That's way I use Urban's Colour Reference Chart from IPMS Stokholm site. Samples of the reference chart are better than a few words about differences between two or more colours from the same range that are similar in tonality.


    Certainly all infos on that subject are always welcome the most .Thank you Dwight for sharing. :D
     
  6. kgambit

    kgambit Active Member

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    I agree about Urban's color chart being a good reference, and I use it as my primary reference source. His chart, btw, is the one that shows BOTH a dark green and bright green for RLM 83. :)

    I think the discussion of RLM 83 is bound to keep croppping up from time to time. :lol: Seems to be a hot button topic.
     
  7. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    I think so too. RLM 77 seems to be joining it as a hot topic recently.
    Steve
     
  8. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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  9. javlin

    javlin Well-Known Member

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    Well I pick up some MMaster RLM83 at the local HS looks a little more like what I think.I actually need to paint an see how it dries also P/U a 1/48 Revell Do 17E4 while I was at it for $24 looked like a good price and a nice kit at that.I now have a full compliment of every RLM color from MMasters we shall see later.I have got to build shelves under my new desk in hobby room.Thanks for all the input and will study one more time before I commit to paint.Cheers Kevin
     
  10. javlin

    javlin Well-Known Member

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    Wojek if I am reading the IPMS site right they to have the 82 as Dk Green also and 83 is light must be a mix up on there part.I am still reading and looking some and it does seem to be the consenus that 82= lt. green and 83=dr. green.Kevin
     
  11. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    As had said it before :

    The RLM82 and RLM83 are confused very often. That's way there are different sampleas of these. The RLM82 was the lightest green colour for the LW camo schemes. Its FS number should be FS34138 . The RLM83 was dark green colour of olive tonality.The RLM 83 was the first applied paint of a camo pattern.Then the RLM82 and RLM81 spots were added.The FS number for the RLM83 should be FS34096,FS34083.
     
  12. javlin

    javlin Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like I am wearing on you Wojek :) sorry just figuring it out ;) Cheers Kevin
     
  13. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    To confirm...

    RLM82 is the LIGHTER Green
    RLM83 is the DARKER Green.

    Many years ago these colours were presented the other way round and then corrected, but the early interpetation and publications still hang around to muddy the waters.....
     
  14. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.
    Also whilst I have no problem at all giving FS numbers as a guide to RLM colours it should be noted that RLM colours were obviously never made to the Federal Standard and will not therefore be an exact match. The FS colour system wasn't formalised until the mid 1950s (56?).The FS number is an approximation and usually close enough for government,or model work!!
    Steve
     
  15. Zaggy

    Zaggy Member

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    Ah, glad I found this thread... I was about to ask myself which is which as many sources seem to use either as dark/light. The current paint I am using, LifeColor, even has RLM82 as the darker and RLM83 as the lighter - not that I am happy with the tonal separation of the two. On the model its hard to tell in the mottled area which is which; the 'Dark' green is not dark enough and the 'Bright' green is not quite bright enough... I will formulate a better mix in the future...

    Dan
     
  16. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    the standards changed in late 44 through 1945 as documentation admits just fly the damn A/C no matter what it is camo'd in. problems are obvious, with the lack of needed funds and materials so did the changes in paints occur, take for example RLM 76 which changed from a sky-blue to tints of white grey, white-blue, shades of green-blue, grey-blue ............... pretty confusing to now reach a standard.
     
  17. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Note also that names,like Dunkelgrun,were never an official designation,that's the whole point of the RLM's numeric system. The names were invented by the aircraft manufacturers who often called the same colour different things. Sometimes they even called different colours the same thing.For example Dornier referred to both RLM 81 and RLM 82 as "Dunkelgrun" against the official RLM number on the camouflage diagram for the Do335.
    My advice? Ignore the spurious names and refer to the RLM numbers,that's why they are there!
    Cheers
    Steve
     
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