RLM colours model paints discussion.

[mikewint]

The only problem I've ever run into with Vallejo is in trying to match up their Model Color (acrylic) line with their Model Air (acrylic meant to be sprayed with no thinning). The Maus kit directions called for a base coat of Vallejo MIDDLESTONE color. This was supposed to be the infamous DUNKELGELB of the late war years. Everyone and his brother seems to has a opinion as to what color Dunkelgelb was supposed to be. In any case I bought two bottles of Vallejo Middlestone. One in Model Color and one in Model Air intending to spray the AIR and brush the COLOR on small parts. Much to me surprise and consternation when they arrived they were totally different colors, i.e., AMARILLO PIEDRA or Yellow Stone and PIEDRA MEDIO or Stone Middle. Then a jar of MM Dunkelgelb arrived and it did not match either of the Vallejo paints.

 

[fubar57]

Speaking of colour chart, does anyone know the accuracy of Iliad Designs colour charts...AIRCRAFT COLOUR CHARTS
The price is decent and I can't see myself paying a small fortune for a full fan deck of which I'm only going to be using a dozen or so chips.

 

[mikewint]

They should come with some type of certification of accuracy/compliance with spectrophotometer data

 

[snapdragon]

The infamous Dunkelgelb raises its head!

All I can say at this point is that Vallejo are going to release some new paints in the model air range that cover Dunkelgelb accurately from 1943 to 1945.

As a retired (hurt) Army Officer I now keep myself busy with modelbuilding and vehicle restorer currently working on restoring some later WWII German panzers to full working order I know exactly what shades of Dunkelgelb there are... and believe me, apart from the first iriteration (Dunkelgelb Nach Muster (Dark Yellow after sample/pattern)) it was changed.

The following photos are of modern reproductions of original formulas from shade cards made for my by a company in Germany from their own Chipset & document archive. The company, still going supplies the current German military with paint and supplied the factories and field repair units (amongst other companies) in WWII.

Dunkelgelb Nach Muster (Dark Yellow After Pattern/sample). This was the first shade produced and was used from February 1943 until the end of the Kursk offensive (operation Citadel. this was the colour that was originally applied to go into the RAL register as RAL 7028 (you won't rind it in todays register). Troops at the front complained that it was too bright.

so when building German armour this is the base colour to use from February 1943 to the end of operation citadel and associated operations.

In August 1942 RAL 7028 was accepted into the RAL register but was changed from the above shade due to complaints from the front. The shade that went into the RAL register and was used as base coat on all vehicles from August 1943 until 1944 was this:

This I personally call Dunkelgelb I A much more earthier tone.

From around June 1944 until November /December 1944 the colour changed again and although resembling the RAL8020 base coat of the Afrika Korps it is actually darker.

Allied intelligence reports on knocked out and captured vehicles in Normandy noted that base coats of these vehicles often differed. which gives us a nice between dates that new vehicles coming into the line on the German side would have this base colour while the older vehicles would have the previous colour.

The above colour I call Dunkelgelb II

The last variant of RAL 7028 appeared in November/December 1944 and proceeded until the end of the war. From January 1945 all Vehicles base coats became RAL 6003 Which was field tested on Tiger II tanks during Operation Panzerfaust in Budapest October 1944

You can clearly see that this vehicle's running gear is NOT dunkelgelb.

Above is the last variant of RAL 7028, or Dunkelgelb III as I call it. A much subdued variant of Dunkelgelb Nach Muster!

Those were the official chipset colours. Alternatives may, on occasion have been used depending on supply disruption. I will say right now that AK's Real Color 7028 set do not match these colours!

James

 

[mikewint]

I ended up using MM Dunkelgelb on the Maus which is more like your very first sample. Not sure what I used on the Tiger IIs but again more like your first sample

 

[fubar57]

Nice looking kits Mike

 

[snapdragon]

For some reason, the last one didn't show!

Here is the last variant (again!)

here's the last variant on Trumpeter's 1/16 Jagdtiger using RAL 6003 as the base shade. All 3 colour are actually mimetic shades and they do change with the light (as do all colours). It's a complicated thing explaining just how our eyes and brain sees colours and interprets them. This photo, taken outside on a really nice summers day here in Gods Own Country shows the colours off to a nice effect.

If we look at a black and white image of this vehicle then we get a whole new perspective colourwise (or not as the case may be!)

What we have to keep in mind is that my camera is a professional grade Nikon one that cost me a considerable amount and obviously the firmware is more than capable of balancing and collecting shades whereas the photos taken in WWII were very much point and shoot then hope it comes out ok conditions with variable light, mist, smoke etc and other combat conditions etc where the cameraman had no time to set up a shot, light and the many other things.

It also shows just how well the German camouflage system blended in to nature and how hard it was for the Allies to spot dug in troops until they opened up! in actual fact, the Germans learned the art of camouflage from the Russians on the Eastern front during Barbarossa!

 

[Drifter]

And the Tamiya equivalent of these? Preferably the TS or AS spray cans.

 

[Lucky13]

Then you have the difference in batches as well, which I noticed on several occasions, working in the, for the Swedish MOD, particularly when it comes to our famous splinter camouflage!

 

[Crimea_River]

And the Tamiya equivalent of these? Preferably the TS or AS spray cans.

Tamiya doesn't make "equivalents". You have to mix their colours to get correct shades. The only dedicated colours they did were the RAF dark green/grey/medium sea greys that they brought out with their 1/32 Spit.

 

[mikewint]

Then you have the difference in batches as well

Exactly, and another one of my points. Not to mention, Sweden isn't even at war and is free to import any needed non-native ingredients. Plain ordinary economics dictate that if pigment Alpha is getting expensive and in short-supply the manufacturer is going to substitute a close-enough pigment Gamma. Add to that the various solvents, application techniques, and environmental conditions. These are after all War-machines not BMWs or Mercedes limos

 

[snapdragon]

There would be slight differences in batches and manufacturers depending on availability of pigments and ingredients as well as manufacturing processes.

It is a statement of fact that in December 1944 a letter to all paint manufacturers was sent out by OKW congratulating them on keeping paint at a 95% accuracy to the chipsets sent out.

You would get a noticeability in colour changes for field painted vehicles as the paste sent out had to be thinned with either water or some other fluid. Petrol was a much used one and there would be a chemical reaction which would change the colour.

I will admit to preferring chipset accurate paints rather than "Scale Correct" colours as when we have the proper original authorised colour we ourselves can mix it down and alter the colour slightly to suit our own purposes and references from factory fresh to a worn out beaten up rusted hulk. It also means that altered or imagined colours that have become original colours because of shoddy research or just plain bad modelling will be seen for what they are as false colours.

It's just my opinion, as everyone has their own opinion but the more people learn just how the eye sees colour and our brain, both conscious and bus-conscious interprets the data to get clear sharp images then the better we can understand camouflage colours and how we use them.

One of my restored vehicles, at a local re-enactment weekend was hidden in a hedge prior to a battle and camouflaged up with netting, cut foliage etc. These vehicles were the Dunkelgelb, Green and Chocolate brown from original chipsets. We had many members of the public walk past the front of the tank on a footpath access route before it was closed for the battle and not one noticed the large Panther sitting there nice and quiet waiting to ambush the allies. We were only set back 3m from the marked access route and the look on faces when the Maybach started up and we crashed out of this hedge and opened fire was well worth a photo!

I like my Vallejo but I am not averse to using other colours if they are so close to what I need!

Would members like me to put up some Luftwaffe colours for you? Not sure how accurate everybody's monitors are, but it will give you a general idea.

James

 

[Crimea_River]

Good thoughts James. It's useful to know that the OKW confirmed colour quality that late in the war. Is there anything you can add on the yellowy-greenish version of 76 that showed up on some 109s and 190Ds?

Thanks for the offer to post colours but, for me, using my computer to assess colours has little value. When in doubt, I use the chips provided by Merrick and Ullmann and I've formulated Tamiya paint mixes to match those, at least to my eye.

 

[snapdragon]

Here's more or less the mid war RLM 74/75/76 colours.

I think you are referring to RLM 84 with has a greenish hue and it is a very late war colour used as an alternative to RLM 76. It was the Luftwaffe's version of RAF Sky.

At the end of the war the Luftwaffe started to paint their aircraft to be unseen on the ground rather than the air because of roving ground attack aircraft which would strafe airfields without warning. This led the Luftwaffe to do the same as the RAF did during the Battle of Britain and disperse their aircraft away from airfields and use trees with camouflage netting and roads as runways or private airfields and grass runways to hide and operate aircraft. These colours are RLM 81/82/83 with the undersurface of RLM 76 or 84.

Here's my Zoukei-Mura Ta 152 H1 in 81/82/83 with RLM 76.

My photo does show these colours off quite nicely and the Defence of the Reich bands are painted not decals (and took some masking to get right!!!). I should have painted the undersurface and side with RLM 84 as FW painted lots of their FW 190's with RLM 84 instead of 76 while Me 109's tended to keep the 74/75/76 scheme. many aircraft were painted on site by ground crews who not also mixed colours, but painted the upper surfaces to resemble the ground area of operations.

I know you like mixing your own paints, but I would just like to say that you should try a bottle of the Vallejo Luftwaffe paints. Pays to keep an open mind and a little experiment now and again and venture out of your comfort zone can work wonders!

I will quite happily send a bottle of one of the Luftwaffe colours if you wish to have a bash with it.

James

 

[Crimea_River]

Thanks but I'm fine.

 

[fubar57]

OK...here's my trust issues with Vallejo Model Air. I don't need to balance or correct the light. On the left is RLM74, I don't know the number of the bottle as it washed off and I scratched a "74" into the label. On the right is RLM"75" from this bottle...

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...and listed as this from another site...

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The colours...

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[Crimea_River]

Good demo.

 

[fubar57]

Don't get me wrong Andy. I really do like Vallejo now that I'm kinda figuring the paint out, ie: waiting 24hrs mask, add a wee bit of flow improver. I just wish they would get there act together with labelling. I go to 2 small hobby shops in PG and the bottles are marked differently.

 

[mikewint]

I THINK??? that mayhap one possible problem is the the translation from Spanish into English. I reference my problem with the two colors/types both marked MIDDLESTONE as the color but were vastly different shades. The Spanish color name revealed the problem, i.e.: AMARILLO PIEDRA or Yellow Stone and PIEDRA MEDIO or Stone Middle, yet in English both were labeled the same.

 

[snapdragon]

Indeed, it is the translation into English from Spanish.

If I get the chance in the next couple of days I will prepare and photograph some paint chips. I have one of my original Panthers (Panzer V) on winter schedule maintenance. There is a very large 700hp Maybach V-12 HL230 P30 on a test/work stand as it undergoes a minor rebuild. 2 of the cylinders were misfiring and some parts have to be remade and fitted. Once that is done and the beast works with no problems on the stand without sounding like an artillery piece firing and gives us that wonderful Maybach grumble that made allied soldiers go white then it can be refitted back into the engine compartment which is a very small area to work in!

I am trying to get hold of Rye Field Models' new Panther G with interior and Takom's Panther A with interior kits.

On my bench at the moment is Meng's Panther A late which I am building to copy one that I have in my warehouse that fought with Panzer Division Munchenberg in the Seelow Heights area and Berlin in 1945. This particular vehicle was folded in to the Panzer Division from the GrossDeutchland and didn't change the division insignia to the Munchenberg one.

I am looking for those respective division insignia in 1/35, so if anyone can help there with a link???

is it ok to talk about Panzers on here or is it just aircraft?

James