Robert Johnson "Thunderbolt" question

[pinsog]

In the post Tempest vs Thunderbolt someone said that many people questioned the Robert Johnson story about the German fighter that raked his P47 with bullets until he ran out of ammo.

What is the alternate version told by those that discredit Robert Johnsons story?

 

[renrich]

I don't necessarily question his story. I have his book and have read it several times. My thought is that the FW had no more cannon ammo and was probably low on ammo for the two 30 cal MGs. If the pilot of the FW had made a full deflection gunnery run and got a burst into the cockpit and killed Johnson, the story would have been different. The FW was not well suited for that type of gunnery run and the pilot may not have been trained for it so the runs were low or no deflection runs from directly astern and nothing vital was hit. The Wildcats in the PTO were known to use the "pincushion" tactics against Japanese fighters with only two 7.7 Mgs which amounted to the same thing. A radial engined fighter with good armor was difficult to bring down from directly astern with rifle caliber Mgs.

 

[billswagger]

The FW was not well suited for that type of gunnery run and the pilot may not have been trained for it so the runs were low or no deflection runs from directly astern and nothing vital was hit.

I would also question the range.
Its presumable that the softer HE 20mm cannon fire was not able to penetrate effectively at longer ranges. It might only blow a small hole or dent aircraft skin, if it didn't bounce off all together. Its one thing to blow out a piece of skin, than to penetrate the turbo housing.
If i remember correctly, the aircraft was not with out severe engine damage.
Is there any other sources that would be able to validate the 21 20mm cannon shell impacts and 200 bullet holes found before he stopped counting?

I know that stories like Johnson's are not that unique to the P-47, but are actually some what rare given the broader picture. There are other stories of the P-47 taking several hits from large caliber flack shells and still being flyable. My guess is that if it wasn't hit in a vital area that the airframe held together fairly well.

 

[pinsog]

There is no doubt the German fighter was out of cannon shells, but what I read in the other thread seemed to cast doubt of the validity of the whole story. I agree on the deflection shooting killing the pilot also, I had thought the same thing myself. The German probably figured if he sat there 50 feet behind a helpless fighter and dumped his entire load of machinegun bullets into it without missing a round, the other fighter should fall from the sky. A very good assumption given that probably any other fighter in the theater on either side would have.

But, does anyone here have an actual alternate story of what supposedly happened that discredits Robert Johnsons story?

 

[TheMustangRider]

One thing that I have found out is that Johnson's story is not completely covered in some books and TV shows and perhaps that's what has led people to doubt its authenticity.

For example in the episode "Thunderbolt" of the Dogfights series, Johnson's story begins when his flight of P-47s is ambushed by Fw-190s, he is caught up by enemy fire and immediately thrown into a spin, he managed to recover only to encounter the lone Fw-190 flown by Egon Mayer if I'm not mistaken that pours all its ammo into the wounded Thunderbolt but manages to survive and makes it back to England.

In the book "The mighty eight" That I just recently read, Johnson's hair-raising experience comes up and with it a part of the story unknown to me.
The book relates that after being shot up near the the Dutch coast I think, Johnson, aware by the advice of intelligence officers that enemy-held coasts are heavily protected by enemy troops on the likely scenario of a Allied invasion, turns his wounded P-47 into France and decides to fly south as long as his he can keep his Thunderbolt airborne, crash land his plane near the Pyrenees mountains and cross into Spain and evade captivity; but flying near Paris, he reconsiders his decision, turns to the French coast in a attempt to cross the English Channel on his own power and eventually encounters the Fw-190 which takes some photographs -important for German intelligence since by this time frame, the P-47 was a relatively new weapon in the Allied arsenal- before pouring his ammunition into the Thunderbolt which manages to survive, cross the English Channel and land a grateful Johnson which kisses the ground as soon as he gets out of the plane.

In the book "8th Air Force USAAF 1942-45", Johnson's experience is once again covered and the writer on this book states that five P-47s if I'm not mistaken are lost in the initial moments of the fight when the flight is ambushed by Fw-190s and two Thunderbolts are blown up in quick succession before Johnson's P-47 is damaged and goes into the spin.

So my best guess is, as everyone has stated, that Johnson was damaged by cannon shells during the ambush but later in his odyssey, he only received 30. caliber machine gun fire from the lone Fw-190.

 

[Milosh]

For example in the episode "Thunderbolt" of the Dogfights series, Johnson's story begins when his flight of P-47s is ambushed by Fw-190s, he is caught up by enemy fire and immediately thrown into a spin, he managed to recover only to encounter the lone Fw-190 flown by Egon Mayer if I'm not mistaken that pours all its ammo into the wounded Thunderbolt but manages to survive and makes it back to England.

Good old History Channel. I read someplace where Mayer wasn't even in the area. (substantial proofs given) Makes for a good story being shot up by a Lw ace and surviving.

 

[Pong]

Good old History Channel. I read someplace where Mayer wasn't even in the area. (substantial proofs given) Makes for a good story being shot up by a Lw ace and surviving.

A few days after viewing that episode, a thought came to me: "How does a P-47 survive an FW-190 firing 20mm shells and 7mm rounds being piloted by a German ace?"

Though, thanks for sharing this and clearing up the story.

-Arlo

 

[davebender]

20mm cannon fire was not able to penetrate effectively at longer ranges

20mm and 30mm mine shells aren't supposed to penetrate far. They rip big holes in the aircraft skin. There is no effective defense against such explosive cannon shells as you cannot armor the aircraft wings and fuselage.

 

[Timppa]

About the Egon Mayer -myth, (which Johnson did not start), see this thread:
Robert Johnson vs Egon Mayer-Urban myth? - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

 

[billswagger]

20mm and 30mm mine shells aren't supposed to penetrate far. They rip big holes in the aircraft skin. There is no effective defense against such explosive cannon shells as you cannot armor the aircraft wings and fuselage.

True, i think its more a point of fact that a large hole in the aircraft skin will not in of itself bring a plane down.
To temper the argument, it makes the idea of a plane absorbing 21 20mm impacts more conceivable if the cannon shells never effectively penetrated and hit a vital part.

However, a round that effectively penetrates causing an explosion inside the framing could sever cables or hydraulic lines, impact fuel tanks which explode, or even damage the turbo housing which could also lead to fire, and all such scenarios could end the fight much sooner than a hole(s) in the aircraft skin.

I don't gather that HE rounds are that capable against armored plating either.
In fact, the Hispano testing verifies this, showing only 8mm penetration at 200 yards for the Mk I HE rounds. At slight angles of impact, there is no measurable result on armor.
I think its also why they used mixed belting.

When the Luftwaffe found itself taking on large bomber formations, they had the hurdle of getting effective hits with large caliber cannons while flying inside the effective range of 50 caliber machine gun fire.
Head on attacks were favored because the plane was less protected and firing into the path of the plane meant the added closing velocity would facilitate penetration of the round on impact.
I often wonder what the penetration of the mk103 and 108 was beyond 200 yards?
Jets were said to have used the weapon with more efficiency because their added speed helped fly the shells into aircraft with the added velocity of the jet.
Otherwise, heavily armored fighters like the Sturmbock were developed to fly in close enough to the bombers and get effective hits.

 

[davparlr]

Let's establish some facts.

1. Robert Johnson has an established and well documented reputation for being an effective and honored fighter pilot.
2. The P-47 has an established and well documented reputation for being a rugged fighter.
3. This episode as related by Johnson has absolutely nothing to do with Johnson flying ability. In fact, if he had his way he would probably would have been a POW and never heard from again in history.
4. The assumption that the encounter with the lone Fw-190 was with 7.92 mm machine guns is quite reasonable. In fact the Dogfights episode said nothing about the fighter using 20mm.
5. Item 4 is not relevant to the story. The ruggedness of the P-47 is related to the total number of weapons strikes on the aircraft on this mission.

The only person surviving the war to witness this event was Johnson. So, in absence of supporting or countering Johnson's counting of bullet and cannon holes in his aircraft, we have to accept that he was reasonably correct and maybe counted entry and exit holes a two strikes, didn't know how to count, or lied.

I don't think Johnson lied; he had no reason to do so. He could have miscounted. However, I think it is well established that one, the Thunderbolt was heavily damaged over a period of time and, two, it still flew quite a while to get home. Arguments otherwise see petty.

 

[Kryten]

a 20mm explosive round detonating on the wing skin will cause considable damage inside the wing structure as well as the skin, fragmentation can cause considerable damage and aircraft are not built like tanks!, you have to keep the weight down so internal spars and struts are as heavy as they need to be and no more!

 

[Maximowitz]

About the Egon Mayer -myth, (which Johnson did not start), see this thread:
Robert Johnson vs Egon Mayer-Urban myth? - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Good thread that one.

 

[renrich]

As far as the story is concerned, I am sure that Johnson said the FW had only ammo for the two 7.9s. I also recall that he said the FW had a beautiful new blue paint job.

 

[billswagger]

In fact the Dogfights episode said nothing about the fighter using 20mm.

aside from what dogfights says or doesn't say, Johnson says his plane absorbed a burst of 20mm fire when he was first bounced.
A cannon shell had entered the cockpit and damaged the throttle quadrant.

 

[davparlr]

aside from what dogfights says or doesn't say, Johnson says his plane absorbed a burst of 20mm fire when he was first bounced.
A cannon shell had entered the cockpit and damaged the throttle quadrant.

The main emphasis of the Dogfight episode was the lone Fw-190 where it did not say anything about 20 mm shells, which is apparently correct. It did mention an explosive shell in the initial onslaught, which is also apparently correct, so I don't really understand what the criticism all about in this thread.

 

[beaupower32]

30 Minute video on Johnson. Made in the game IL-2, and is quite intresting.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnIVCxuc-fg Part 1


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpNlsD6rmHw Part 2


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=209nbNM5qmA Part 3

 

[bobbysocks]

the 20mm round that came through the canopy happened in the earlier engagement. it kinked the tracks or somehow made the canopy unable to be opened. johnson tried to bail and IIRC thought about bellying it in until he realized he couldnt get out. then he decided to fly home. along the way he met a lone fw who stalked him for awhile prior to trying to smoke him. whether that fw had any 20 ammo left...who knows...but he sure had a lot of other round left. he peppered that 47 several times and if i remember the story right even came up to looked it over once before pumping more rounds in it. he was right...it wasnt his day to die.

 

[Smokey Stover]

I have researched this combat action for quite some time, and personally i dont believe either Johnson's or Mayer's accounts. (Mayer's account is mostly based on eye witness or pilot testimony) I've seen nothing by Mayer himself and as he didnt survive the war its hard to know 100%.
What i have found is this....
On 27 July 2007 the History Channel featured on its regular program
Dogfight an episode entitled Thunderbolt which covered three dogfights
in which Thunderbolt units were engaged. The first part described the
famous fight of Robert S. Johnson of the 56th FG where his squadron of
16 P-47s were bounced by approximately the same number of Focke Wulf
190s on 26 June 1943 and Johnson's Thunderbolt was shot up, caught
fire, and went into a spin from which he recovered and the engine fire
went out. As he was flying away from the combat scene he was attacked
by a Fw 190 which had evidently used up its 20 mm ammunition and was
using its two 7.92 mm machine guns. The famous author Barrett Tillman
claimed that the Fw 190 was piloted by the famous ace Egon Mayer
(commander of III./JG 2). The P-47 took the punishment of the
rifle-caliber MG and returned to base, although it was written-off
(category E) which is never mentioned in the documentary. Neither is
mentioned the fact that five other P-47s were lost.

The German records indicate that the following pilots made claims for P-47s over
Western Europe on this date:

26.06.43 Hptm. Wilhelm-F. Galland Stab II./JG 26 P-47 N. Neufchâtel:
8.000 m. 18.52

26.06.43 Ofw. Adolf Glunz 4./JG 26 P-47 N. Neufchâtel: 7.000 m. 18.54

26.06.43 Ltn. Heinz Hoppe 4./JG 26 P-47 Neufchâtel: 7.000 m. 18.55

26.06.43 Fw. Günther Scholz 5./JG 26 P-47 20 km. N. Neufchâtel: 2.500
m. 19.00

26.06.43 Ofw. Kurt Goltzsch 5./JG 2 P-47 QC 2: 5.550 m. [15 km. N.W.
Cayeux] 19.03

26.06.43 Hptm. Wilhelm-F. Galland Stab II./JG 26 P-47 10 km. N.W.
Dieppe: 7-8.000 m. 19.04

26.06.43 Ltn. Waldemar Radener 4./JG 26 P-47 10-12 km. N.N.W. Le
Tréport: 400 m. 19.04

26.06.43 Fw. Peter Crump 5./JG 26 P-47 15-20 km. N.W. Somme Estuary:
300 m. 19.10

26.06.43 Ltn. Heinz Hoppe 4./JG 26 P-47 10 km. N.W. Somme Estuary:
100-0 m. 19.10.

If Tillman had checked these records, he would have known that Egon
Mayer made no claims on this date. I believe the story of Egon Mayer
attacking Johnson's P-47 came from Roger Freeman's book The Mighty
Eighth where on page 44 he claims "Later it is said, an enemy radio
station broadcast an interview with Oberst Egon Mayer of J.G. 2, who
told how he shot down three P-47s on the Villacoublay raid, including
one marked HV-P!" The latter was Johnson's Thunderbolt. Tillman has
accepted this rumor as fact, indicating that we should always be
sceptical of such claims as to who shot down whom.

Johnson in his book Thunderbolt describes the dogfight down to the
minutest details. What is significant is that the describes the
altitude and area of this fight. He states that he had flown over
Dieppe and that the fight occured at about 1000 feet over the English
Channel. The closest description is that of Lt. Waldemar Radener who
made his claim of a P-47 as occuring 10-12 km NNW of Le Treport. This
town is less than 25 km ENE of Dieppe. Radener's description would
place this fight over the English Channel roughly north of Dieppe. It
is also possible that Fw. Wilhelm Mayer shot up Johnson's Thunderbolt
as he filed a claim for a P-47 at 1900 20-30 km NW of Dieppe. Mayer's
claim was unconfirmed as he had no witnesses which seems to be the
case in the Johnson fight where Johnson states that he was attacked by
a single Fw 190. It also seems likely that Johnson's aircraft was
also claimed when the initial attack occured which sent his P-47
spinning earthward, on fire.

Egon Mayer made no claims on this date and his unit III./JG 2 was
stationed in Brittany, too far away. It is also significant that Kurt
Goltzsch of 5./JG 2 made a claim for a P-47 during this raid indicated
that some aircraft of II./JG 2 were involved in the interception. The
German fighter pilots claimed nine Thunderbolts of which six were
destroyed or written off and five were damaged. I./ and II./JG 2 were
involved during the fighting, claiming three B-17s, two Spitfires,
and,of course, the single P-47. Major Josef Priller also claimed one
B-17. I don't know what losses were sustained by JG 2 and JG 26.

 

[GregP]

There aren't any guns that can't penetrate the skin of a WWII fighter aircraft. It isn't very thick (maybe 0.040" on U.S. fighters) and the only way t will bounce is from a very shallow shot. Even an angle as small as 15° - 20° will penetrate.

We have a Bf 109E that was pulled from a Russian lake, and you can see very shallow deflection angle shots that penetrated. In fact, you can see ALL the hits.

Now, the ability to cause damage will definitely be affected, but not the ability to go through the skin. I'd imagine that going through skin would set off a cannon shell. but maybe not. It might pass right through at 90°, but a shallow shot that penetrates should set it off ... I have not tested that, of course.