Set a Ceylon trap for Nagumo, March 1942

[Admiral Beez]

Agreed, the stubborn refusal to convoy was baffling. Had they tended to logistics and infrastructure properly the entire Pacific campaign would have been slowed for the allies. The generation leading Japan and its military for WW2 seems to have absorbed only the sizzle and not the steak of the Russo-Japanese war.

Had Japan been thrashed at Tsushima the IJN wouldn't have thought they could take on all comers. Czar Nicolas II and Admiral Rozhestvensky did the Japanese no favours in emboldening a false confidence in both Japan's abilities and fortune as they entered the 1930s and 40s.

 

[RW Mk. III]

Deleted as too far off topic

 

[SaparotRob]

Here's a pretty concise (actually long winded) and reasonably researched account:

Armoured Aircraft Carriers

You weren't kidding.

 

[The Basket]

Why was the IJN poor at ASW?

A few reasons. Or guesses.

ASW was a backwater where the no hopers went. The glamour was the big gun battleships or carriers or aircraft. The top dogs went there. ASW was for the guys who didn't make the grade.

The big Mahan final battle didn't have ASW so no need.

ASW is defensive attrition warfare and Japan don't do that. Since the USN will snap like a twig then why bother.

American torpedoes were so poor that you didn't need ASW.

Let's say we go all in and the IJN sink every ship. Then the Tirpitz can sail down the Thames and shell Buckingham Palace. Is that what you want coz that's what will happen.

 

[RW Mk. III]

Why was the IJN poor at ASW?

A few reasons. Or guesses.

ASW was a backwater where the no hopers went. The glamour was the big gun battleships or carriers or aircraft. The top dogs went there. ASW was for the guys who didn't make the grade.

The big Mahan final battle didn't have ASW so no need.

ASW is defensive attrition warfare and Japan don't do that. Since the USN will snap like a twig then why bother.

American torpedoes were so poor that you didn't need ASW.

Let's say we go all in and the IJN sink every ship. Then the Tirpitz can sail down the Thames and shell Buckingham Palace. Is that what you want coz that's what will happen.

You know the RAF would probably have a thing or two to say about that...

Or for that matter. The RN battleships. Hang on how is the Tirpitz sailing up the Thames I'm confused.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Why was the IJN poor at ASW?

A few reasons. Or guesses.

ASW was a backwater where the no hopers went. The glamour was the big gun battleships or carriers or aircraft. The top dogs went there. ASW was for the guys who didn't make the grade.

The big Mahan final battle didn't have ASW so no need.

ASW is defensive attrition warfare and Japan don't do that. Since the USN will snap like a twig then why bother.

American torpedoes were so poor that you didn't need ASW.

Let's say we go all in and the IJN sink every ship. Then the Tirpitz can sail down the Thames and shell Buckingham Palace. Is that what you want coz that's what will happen.

No one was good at ASW, except the Brits. Britain was good at ASW because they'd faced it in WW1. Everyone else, IJN, USN, etc. had to learn anew.

 

[swampyankee]

No one was good at ASW, except the Brits. Britain was good at ASW because they'd faced it in WW1. Everyone else, IJN, USN, etc. had to learn anew.

The British also had to relearn ASW techniques. It's just that they knew they had to learn quick when Germany started the war

 

[The Basket]

A search for SS Automedon will be helpful.

In this episode, it was revealed the weakness of RN in the far East.

The gist was if the Japanese launched a major campaign against imperial possessions then the RN can do nothing and that it would suck to be you.

We often go on about Bismarck and Graf Spee but it was actually the Regia Marina which offered the greatest strategic surface threat.

Singapore and Hong Kong was not as vital as the Mediterranean or Gibraltar or Suez.

 

[Kevin J]

A search for SS Automedon will be helpful.

In this episode, it was revealed the weakness of RN in the far East.

The gist was if the Japanese launched a major campaign against imperial possessions then the RN can do nothing and that it would suck to be you.

We often go on about Bismarck and Graf Spee but it was actually the Regia Marina which offered the greatest strategic surface threat.

Singapore and Hong Kong was not as vital as the Mediterranean or Gibraltar or Suez.

Try telling that to the Australians and New Zealanders. The Canadians will be a little bit upset too.

 

[The Basket]

Try telling that to the Australians and New Zealanders. The Canadians will be a little bit upset too.

Today? Ok.

Anyone here from the Dominions? The Royal Navy will not protect you in the event of a full scale Japanese invasion.

 

[Kevin J]

Today? Ok.

Anyone here from the Dominions? The Royal Navy will not protect you in the event of a full scale Japanese invasion.

Not me. I don't think my Royal Navy today could protect me anymore.

 

[swampyankee]

Try telling that to the Australians and New Zealanders. The Canadians will be a little bit upset too.

The leadership of the various Dominions weren't stupid; they knew that the RN couldn't -- not wouldn't -- defend them in the event of a world-wide conflict where the Japanese were a major enemy. Australia, at least, was making or threatening to make, overtures to the US for supply of military equipment because of this. How much of the perceived Japanese threat, at least in the early 1930s, was due to racial paranoia (the "yellow peril") and how much of it was due to a realistic assessment of Japanese intentions is moot (I suspect it was under-estimated in London and over-estimated in Canberra.) By the time the Japanese threat to the Commonwealth countries and European and US possessions in Asia and the Pacific became evident, the war in Europe was already well underway and it was far too late for Australia and New Zealand to start an independent defense build-up.

Alas, for them, British policy had been to retard industrialization of the dominions, even the white dominions, for the benefit of industries in the British Isles. Canada was probably the most industrially advanced of the dominions, but that was largely because of the proximity to the US.

I've wondered for quite some time how WW2 and world history (or at least Australasian history) would have proceeded differently had the policy in London had been to promote industry in the British Empire. How would the war in the China-Burma-India theatre have proceeded were India capable of producing all the uniforms, transport, artillery, small arms, and ammunition needed for the Indian Army and Australia capable of designing and mass producing modern combat aircraft and tanks?

 

[Admiral Beez]

I've wondered for quite some time how WW2 and world history (or at least Australasian history) would have proceeded differently had the policy in London had been to promote industry in the British Empire.

That would only come about if there was a net benefit for the UK.

 

[swampyankee]

That would only come about if there was a net benefit for the UK.

That goes without saying. The British Raj destroyed India's cotton industry to benefit British producers and monopolized salt production so it could be taxed.

 

[The Basket]

The British acted in its own interest.
Non shock.
Ishapore and Lithgow plus the debacle over the Ross showed the Dominions did have production abilities although building tanks is a different mstter.

 

[RCAFson]

Today? Ok.

Anyone here from the Dominions? The Royal Navy will not protect you in the event of a full scale Japanese invasion.

The RN had to give the Commonwealth/Empire's industrial heartland priority in a global conflict, where the Axis occupied France and was ~20nm miles from the UK. However, Operation C, the IJN foray into the Indian Ocean, shows that the RN ran considerable risks to assemble a powerful fleet in the Indian Ocean to counter the IJN, and there's no reason to think that if the IJN had attempted an invasion of Australia, that the same fleet would not have intervened against the IJN.

OTOH, if Japan, alone, had attacked the Commonwealth, then yes, the RN would have intervened with it's full strength.

 

[RCAFson]

The British acted in its own interest.
Non shock.
Ishapore and Lithgow plus the debacle over the Ross showed the Dominions did have production abilities although building tanks is a different mstter.

This is a completely incorrect statement. The UK could have done a deal with Hitler in June 1940, and they didn't and decided to fight on. How was that acting in its own interest?

 

[Glider]

I think it's worth remembering that the economic strength and infrastructure of area's like Australia and New Zealand wasn't sufficient to support the industry required to produce considerable quantities of large, sophisticated and expensive war material of every type.
Everything from power. water, transport, iron foundries, literally everything would have been needed and the population of approx 7, 000,000 (Australia) was a lot less than London at the time. Plus of course the population was spread over a huge country.

 

[swampyankee]

This is a completely incorrect statement. The UK could have done a deal with Hitler in June 1940, and they didn't and decided to fight on. How was that acting in its own interest?

What would the UK have had to give up, other than honor, to cut a deal with Hitler? Its Jewish population?

 

[swampyankee]

I think it's worth remembering that the economic strength and infrastructure of area's like Australia and New Zealand wasn't sufficient to support the industry required to produce considerable quantities of large, sophisticated and expensive war material of every type.
Everything from power. water, transport, iron foundries, literally everything would have been needed and the population of approx 7, 000,000 (Australia) was a lot less than London at the time. Plus of course the population was spread over a huge country.

The population of Sweden was 6.4 million in 1940, and it was able to maintain a competent ordnance industry. I realize that Australia's geographic situation was different, but this could give Australia a better domestic air transport market, and its position in the Commonwealth may permit it easier access to British possessions in Africa and Asia. Note that the idea of industrializing Australia would require a major change in attitude in London, as it was colonial policy to discourage industrialization outside of the British Isles. It was pretty much universal for imperial powers to discourage industry and promote extractive industry and cash crops, vs food production.

Such a change in policy would have had to start well before the start of WW2, probably no later than the first decades of the 20th Century.