Spitfire vs Mustang

[renrich]

Marshall, there was a book entitled "Thunderbolt" I think, by Bob Johnson. I have a copy but it is packed and unavailable. A good read and I expect available on Amazon. Briefly, from memory, Johnson said that the P47 he was flying at the time had the toothpick props and the Spit could outclimb him, out accelerate him and turn better than him. The only advantage the P47 had was it could go downhill faster ( than almost anything) and could roll much better than the Spit. His tactic with a Spit on his six was to start rolling, first one direction and then the other. Then he would go into a dive, which of course required some altitude, and when the Spit was out distanced pull up into a zoom climb, which the P47 was good at. At the top of the zoom climb with the Spit below him trying to catch up, he would hammerhead stall and the Spit in a climb with not a lot of airspeed suddenly was head to head with a Thunderbolt coming down with 8 gun barrels glaring at him. Sounds like a good tactic to me.

 

[fastmongrel]

Problem with all these trick one on one combat manouvers. While your doing your Knights of the air thing someone else will sneak in and fill you full of holes. None of the great aces seemed to have much time for fancy manouvering, prefering to get in, hit and get out leaving fancy flying to pilots who would soon be making a hole in the ground.

 

[nuuumannn]

The 'woodman's axe' is a great analogy; the secret to the Spit's longevity was its centre fuselage, which was durable enough to remain in every mark of Spit from the Mk.V on. From Frame 5, the firewall to Frame 19, the tail section, the only change was whether the version in question was a high back or low back.

What also has to be considered when comparing both aircraft is that they were both products of their time; the Mustang was a more modern design; the P-51D was faster with a longer range than the Spit IX on the same engine, it was aerodynamically more efficient. The Spit XIV was essentially a pre war design, but modified with a bigger engine.

 

[tomo pauk]

Great pic, thanks

 

[Glider]

A while a go I read a book on a USAAF unit that moved from the Spitfire IX to the Mustang. To a man the pilots preferred the Spitfires but obviously they had no choice and Mustangs they had to use. The exception was the CO who was away when the first P51's turned up, heard what was going on, took a P51 up, wrung it out and said that he preferred the P51, but as the writer observed, what else would you expect him to say?

 

[drgondog]

A while a go I read a book on a USAAF unit that moved from the Spitfire IX to the Mustang. To a man the pilots preferred the Spitfires but obviously they had no choice and Mustangs they had to use. The exception was the CO who was away when the first P51's turned up, heard what was going on, took a P51 up, wrung it out and said that he preferred the P51, but as the writer observed, what else would you expect him to say?

Sounds like the 31st. Had they remained with the Spit IX, their contribution to the defeat of the LW for the 15th AF would have been far less. Better air to air but in skies with no enemy aircraft while Mustangs and Lightnings were fighting over Hungary, Yugoslavia and Austria

 

[Glider]

I don't disagree with a word that you say. As you know this is a topic that comes up every now and again and my personal view is that if I had to fly a plane into combat I would take the Spit, if I had a choice if directing a campaign, I would take the P51 for the reasons you state

 

[Readie]

Sounds like the 31st. Had they remained with the Spit IX, their contribution to the defeat of the LW for the 15th AF would have been far less. Better air to air but in skies with no enemy aircraft while Mustangs and Lightnings were fighting over Hungary, Yugoslavia and Austria

Yes but, had not the Spitfire won the air battles nearer home there would have been no need for the Mustang....
They are both superb fighters and meant for very different roles.
There is a part of me that still thinks that you cannot really compare the two...
John

 

[marshall]

There is a part of me that still thinks that you cannot really compare the two...
John

I think that everything can be compared to everything...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlmzwZXa-Ww

 

[drgondog]

Yes but, had not the Spitfire won the air battles nearer home there would have been no need for the Mustang....
They are both superb fighters and meant for very different roles.
There is a part of me that still thinks that you cannot really compare the two...
John

John - I truly agree. One interesting aspect of this debate is to conduct a poll among those that flew both and ask them which of the two would they prefer to fly for pure enjoyment - disregard military objectives. I suspect the Spit would win hands down

Bill

 

[pbfoot]

John - I truly agree. One interesting aspect of this debate is to conduct a poll among those that flew both and ask them which of the two would they prefer to fly for pure enjoyment - disregard military objectives. I suspect the Spit would win hands down

Bill

Can't be..... just finished watching Gathering of Mustangs and Legends on PBS and according to all interviewed the Mustang is the clear choice so that settles that

 

[oldcrowcv63]

But pb, how was the question asked? Were the pilots asked which they'd pefer in a dogfight or in which would they prefer to go to war? I'd want to be in an airplace that could sit over my adversary's field until he walked to his airplane and shoot him then. Hence P-51.

Also, I chose the Mustang having somehow missed the word 'dogfight' and 'vs'. Gotta check these glasses. 8)

Geez, I thought it was beauty contest! and figured Oskar was just being Eris throwing out a golden apple and shouting "Kallisti!" I figured if I made the wrong choice he'd turn me into a moose or something!

 

[oldcrowcv63]

But pb, how was the question asked? Were the pilots asked which they'd pefer in a dogfight or in which would they prefer to go to war? I'd want to be in an airplace that could sit over my adversary's field until he walked to his airplane and shoot him then. Hence P-51.

Also, I chose the Mustang having somehow missed the word 'dogfight' and 'vs'. Gotta check these glasses. 8)

Geez, I thought it was beauty contest! and figured Oskar was just being Eris throwing out a golden apple and shouting "Kallisti!" I figured if I made the wrong choice he'd turn me into a moose or something!

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Oooops! Can anyone tell me if there is there a way to delete a duplicate message?

 

[pbfoot]

But pb, how was the question asked? Were the pilots asked which they'd pefer in a dogfight or in which would they prefer to go to war? I'd want to be in an airplace that could sit over my adversary's field until he walked to his airplane and shoot him then. Hence P-51.

Also, I chose the Mustang having somehow missed the word 'dogfight' and 'vs'. Gotta check these glasses. 8)

Geez, I thought it was beauty contest! and figured Oskar was just being Eris throwing out a golden apple and shouting "Kallisti!" I figured if I made the wrong choice he'd turn me into a moose or something!

I suppose if you went to the UK the answer would be Spit , to me its not so cut and dried

 

[Readie]

John - I truly agree. One interesting aspect of this debate is to conduct a poll among those that flew both and ask them which of the two would they prefer to fly for pure enjoyment - disregard military objectives. I suspect the Spit would win hands down

Bill

Bill, You are right. The pilots love affair with the Spitfire will never end.
The Spitfire has earned a place in our nation's heart and is as symbolic of British style as, say an E type Jaguar.
Given the the choice of driving a 3.8 E Type or an same era USA sports car I would guess that most would choose the Jag...

John

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Bill, You are right. The pilots love affair with the Spitfire will never end.
The Spitfire has earned a place in our nation's heart and is as symbolic of British style as, say an E type Jaguar.
Given the the choice of driving a 3.8 E Type or an same era USA sports car I would guess that most would choose the Jag...

John

Here are two of the most beautiful aircraft ever built or perhaps I should say, "here are the two most beautiful aircraft ever built," even though there are a lot of contenders. They are certainly in the running for that accolade. In their performance, each had at least one achilles heel. I think there is also something almost mystical about the facts (well known to the denizens of this forum) that early on, USAAF american pilots flew the Spit I believe for want of a fighter of equally superb performance, while later the P-51 enjoyed the benefits of the marriage to the Merlin that made its reputation. More than that, the Mustang itself only came into existance as a response to an English need. I could argue there are larger forces at work in all this. But at the least, it is symbolic of our shared heritage. As a dog fighter, the Spitfire, and for an aircraft to take the Merlin to the enemy, the Mustang. Other wise, this seems to me to be a Sophie's choice for airplanes.

 

[Readie]

Here are two of the most beautiful aircraft ever built or perhaps I should say, "here are the two most beautiful aircraft ever built," even though there are a lot of contenders. They are certainly in the running for that accolade. In their performance, each had at least one achilles heel. I think there is also something almost mystical about the facts (well known to the denizens of this forum) that early on, USAAF american pilots flew the Spit I believe for want of a fighter of equally superb performance, while later the P-51 enjoyed the benefits of the marriage to the Merlin that made its reputation. More than that, the Mustang itself only came into existance as a response to an English need. I could argue there are larger forces at work in all this. But at the least, it is symbolic of our shared heritage. As a dog fighter, the Spitfire, and for an aircraft to take the Merlin to the enemy, the Mustang. Other wise, this seems to me to be a Sophie's choice for airplanes.

The Spitfire Mustang are both beautifull and wonderfull aircraft. The icing on the Mustang cake is the RR Merlin. The allies were in desperate need of a long range fighter to take the fight to the German heartland and, as you say, the marriage of Anglo- American industry produced a superb plane.
The Spitfire has more heritage though, tracing its roots back to the Schneider Trophy seaplanes Supermarine S.6B - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That is appeal to me, seeing the development of cutting edge technology, culminating in the Spitfire who fought throughout WW2 with distinction.
I also admire the later designs that were built to do a job and without which we would have been in the merde.
John

 

[oldcrowcv63]

The Spitfire has more heritage though, tracing its roots back to the Schneider Trophy seaplanes Supermarine S.6B - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That is appeal to me, seeing the development of cutting edge technology, culminating in the Spitfire who fought throughout WW2 with distinction.
I also admire the later designs that were built to do a job and without which we would have been in the merde.
John

One of my treasured artifacts, hidden away in my disintegrating copy of the time-life volume "RAF at War" is a copy of an article in USN's BuAer News letter dated 15 October 1931, describing the victory of the Supermarine racer and the lamented decision by the USA to withdraw from the competition. It always seemed to me to be prophetic and an object lesson for any nation considering dispensing with technology development that may appear superfluous at the time but may have long term ramifications.

Of course, I have recently seen posts that assert the Supermarine racer experience had nothing to contribute to Spitfire development! That just seems to me to be silly.

 

[Readie]

One of my treasured artifacts, hidden away in my disintegrating copy of the time-life volume "RAF at War" is a copy of an article in USN's BuAer News letter dated 15 October 1931, describing the victory of the Supermarine racer and the lamented decision by the USA to withdraw from the competition. It always seemed to me to be prophetic and an object lesson for any nation considering dispensing with technology development that may appear superfluous at the time but may have long term ramifications.

Of course, I have recently seen posts that assert the Supermarine racer experience had nothing to contribute to Spitfire development! That just seems to me to be silly.

Britain was lucky to have the SB series when we did, competition acted as a spur to our designers and engineers. All of which was just as well as Herr Hitler started played up and we needed modern fighters to stave off the LW.
Its an interesting point to discuss, if we have pulled out and the USA had won the Schneider would we have had the impetus to develop the Spitfire?
You are right...the Supermarine development of the SB series did contribute to the Spitfire...Mitchell Supermarine used the lessons learnt. Why wouldn't they?
John