Stuka vs. Dauntless vs. Val vs. Skua vs. Il-2?

Juha · Sep 18, 2009

Hello Viking
But we must recon the overclaiming factor, which IIRC was rather high at least early on amongst SBD crews, at least according to Lundstrom. But I also think that SBDs could look after themselves better than Vals, Skuas or Ju 87s.

Juha

davebender · Sep 18, 2009

SBDs could look after themselves better than Vals, Skuas or Ju 87s.

240 mph. D3A Val.
255 mph. Ju-87D Stuka.
255 mph. SBD Dauntless. Most common version with 1,200 hp engine.

I think you are splitting hairs. The D3A, Ju-87 and SBD all have similiar max speed. All are sitting ducks for early WWII fighter aircraft with a 100+ mph speed advantage.

The 294 mph SB2C Helldiver did not become operational until November 1943. By then most fighter aircraft were pushing 400 mph. Hence it was not all that survivable either.

Unlike most dive bombers, the below aircraft were fast enough to make evasion of contemporary fighter aircraft possible once the bombs were gone.
357 mph. D4Y3 Judy. Mitsubishi MK8P 62 radial engine.
365 mph. A-36 Apache.
388 mph. Me-410A.

Juha · Sep 18, 2009

Hello Dave
aircombat wasn't one dimensional. Speed alone, especially if one is still slower than enemy fighters, wasn't enough, look JNAF Judy losses during the late war carrier combats, if you don't believe me.

Juha

davebender · Sep 18, 2009

I suspect most of those losses happened before the bombs were dropped. Nothing you can do about that except provide better fighter escort. Once the bombs are gone the F6F fighter would have a difficult time catching a Judy dive bomber.

tomo pauk · Sep 18, 2009

davebender said:
I agree. An aircraft in a 90 degree dive is an easy target for light flak. However I suspect an aircraft flying at an angle of 45 to 60 degrees is a much more difficult target for flak while still retaining decent bomb accuracy.

Sorry for a late reply...
Any info that backs that up? Since I've served 12 months as a crew member of the Praga twin 30mm I'm not sure your claim is correct.

Lucky13 · Sep 18, 2009

tomo pauk said:
Praga twin 30mm....

??

Milosh · Sep 18, 2009

Lucky13 said:
??

A Google search turned up this, M53/59 twin 30-mm self-propelled AA gun

Lucky13 · Sep 18, 2009

Just did.....

On a sidenote.....how many of these except the Stuka, could carry a torpedo?

tomo pauk · Sep 18, 2009

Milosh said:
A Google search turned up this, M53/59 twin 30-mm self-propelled AA gun

That's my baby, Milosh

tomo pauk · Sep 18, 2009

Picture:

tomo pauk · Sep 18, 2009

Lucky13 said:
Just did.....

On a sidenote.....how many of these except the Stuka, could carry a torpedo?

Don't think torpedo was a standard livery for planes from our thread...

davebender · Sep 18, 2009

Sounds like you are our resident expert.

I am under the impression that a crossing shot against an aircraft is more difficult then a head on shot. Perhaps I am mistaken.

Juha · Sep 18, 2009

Hello Dave
But the main aim of defending fighters was to catch the attacking bombers before they made their attack, and that was especially true to carrier fighters because, as one has said, carriers were eggshells with tremendous firepower. Anyway, if there were extra Hellcats or the attack was clearly ending you have some surviving Judys low down with some extra speed, the use of divebrakes had inhibit them to gain too much extra speed and Hellcats higher and nearer to their full throttle height. If Hellcat pilots were able to see the Judys IMHO almost unprotected and weakly armed Judys would not have much a chance against Hellcats coming downhill after them. I doubt that smallwinged Judy was even very manoeuvrable.

Juha

vikingBerserker · Sep 18, 2009

Ouch, that'll leave a mark!

proton45 · Sep 19, 2009

davebender said:
240 mph. D3A Val.
255 mph. Ju-87D Stuka.
255 mph. SBD Dauntless. Most common version with 1,200 hp engine.

I think you are splitting hairs. The D3A, Ju-87 and SBD all have similiar max speed. All are sitting ducks for early WWII fighter aircraft with a 100+ mph speed advantage.

The 294 mph SB2C Helldiver did not become operational until November 1943. By then most fighter aircraft were pushing 400 mph. Hence it was not all that survivable either.

Unlike most dive bombers, the below aircraft were fast enough to make evasion of contemporary fighter aircraft possible once the bombs were gone.
357 mph. D4Y3 Judy. Mitsubishi MK8P 62 radial engine.
365 mph. A-36 Apache.
388 mph. Me-410A.

The figures I have for the D3A are 267 mph Stuka 242 mph...

Juha said:
If Hellcat pilots were able to see the Judys IMHO almost unprotected and weakly armed Judys would not have much a chance against Hellcats coming downhill after them. I doubt that smallwinged Judy was even very manoeuvrable.

Juha

The reputation of the Judy was that it had good maneuverability due to the low wing loading...it was still a sitting duck (lol), but the maneuverability was suppose to be good...

I go with the opinion that, all things being equal, every dive bomber is vulnerable to offensive action. Without fighter escort any dive bomber was a sitting duck to a well trained pursuit aircraft of their respective era or theater.

That being said...I have always been a fan of the Stuka, it is a cool looking aerocraft and it single handedly gave birth to the mystique of the dive bomber as an instrument of destruction fear...

Milosh · Sep 19, 2009

I know it is not one of the planes mentioned but there is the A-36, a fighter converted to a dive bomber.

Juha · Sep 19, 2009

Hello Proton
Judys wingloading wasn't very low, it had 23,6m2 / 254.027 sq.ft wing area ie its wing loading for D4Y-2 was 158,6kg/m2 32,6lb/sq.ft at normal t/o weight, almost 50% higher than that of D3A-2 Val. But powerloading of D4Y-2, 2,4kg/hp, was almost 20% better than that of D3A-2 Val.

SBD had better wing loading with 325 sq.ft / Gross: 9352lb (-5), 9407lb (-3) Max: 10 700lb (-5), 10 400 (-3) but worse powerloading. But it had armour and self-sealing fuel tanks which Judy didn't have.

The speed, it depends on version
D3A-1, 240mph
D3A-2, 267mph
Ju87R-2, 211 mph
Ju-87D-1, 249mph
Ju-87D-5, 255mph
SBD-3, 250mph
SBD-5, 255mph

Juha

tomo pauk · Sep 19, 2009

davebender said:
Sounds like you are our resident expert.

Thanks, most kind of you

I am under the impression that a crossing shot against an aircraft is more difficult then a head on shot. Perhaps I am mistaken.

You are right about that. Yet, it doesn't really matter at wich angle the dive bomber dives at you (= the AAA), though aiming at target diving at 90deg against Earth is troublesome for guns (elevation was rarely exceeding 85deg).
On the other hand, if the bomber dives (a 90deg dive) at the object a mile or so distant from the (light)AAA emplacement, the aimer has much better opportunity, since the target's position changes only against one plane/axis, not against more.
Until the bomber releases the bomb that is

.

davebender · Sep 19, 2009

The speed, it depends on version
D3A-1, 240mph
D3A-2, 267mph
Ju87R-2, 211 mph
Ju-87D-1, 249mph
Ju-87D-5, 255mph
SBD-3, 250mph
SBD-5, 255mph

Leaving aside the limited production Ju-87R (Long range variant), max speed for all these dive bombers falls within a 27 mph range. I doubt that makes much difference.

The D4Y, A-36 and Me-410A have max speeds that average 100 mph faster. That equates to a huge increase in survivability vs enemy fighter aircraft.

Apparently there is no defense against light flak except crew armor and luck.

Juha · Sep 19, 2009

Hello Dave
Quote:" The D4Y, A-36 and Me-410A have max speeds that average 100 mph faster. That equates to a huge increase in survivability vs enemy fighter aircraft."

Still have not seen any proof that Judys were hugely more survivable than D3A-2 Vals. A-36 was entirely different bird, being in essence a fighter modified to dive bomber and IIRC at least in MTO during Sicily campaign they wired its dive brakes permanently shut, so it was used as fighter bomber. Me 410, much bigger plane and I have no recollection on its use as dive-bomber. IIRC Me 210s were used in bombing operations during Tunisia campaign but I have no recollection how effective they were or the dive angle used, whether they were used as dive bombers or as fighter bombers like P-47s or Spits and Typhoons which could also dive bomb but not as accurately as real dive bombers.

Stuka vs. Dauntless vs. Val vs. Skua vs. Il-2?

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