Stuka vs. Dauntless vs. Val vs. Skua vs. Il-2?

[Glider]

I recognise that this is a digression but I came across this claim in an account of the attack on Pearl Harbour in 1941. It was written by Mr. IIZUKA Tokuji who took part in the attack.

I mention it here as its to do with a Val dogfighting with a P40 during the attack.

The carrier bombers of the Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Hiryu of the First Air Fleet had received superior training so they were instructed to attack the vessels in the harbor. The training level of the crews on the carriers Shokaku and Zuikaku was somewhat less than the other four carriers therefore they had been assigned the airfields as targets. It turned out that one airfield, a small one near to Wheeler, was left untouched. So, when the Second Wave arrived, these P-40s, about ten undamaged ones, came up to intercept us.
Pilot GOTOH Gen, in the Akagi dive-bomber group and who had participated in the attack with us, engaged one of these P-40s in an air duel. Both ended up shooting each other down off Honolulu. The enemy plane went down and so did ours. Because we had observed this air duel, both were credited as having been shot down. About two years ago, a part of the plane piloted by GOTOH was salvaged out of the ocean. Author HENMI Jun wrote in her book that the piece found was identified as being from the GOTOH plane.

Attached is a link to the entire article and I recommend it to anyone, I found it fascinating as you don't often find eye witness accounts from the Japanese side. Another must read part is the pre war training which involved totally unexpected items such reading the palms of future pilots, you cannot make it up.

Kanbaku War Notes

 

[proton45]

Thanks "Glider" that was a good read....

 

[renrich]

Not sure exactly why but in actions where SBDs and SB2Cs were used , the SBD had a much better survivability record. On paper, the SB2C had better performance and better armament but it was not as suvivable nor as effective a dive bomber as the SBD. The Corsair was a more accurate dive bomber than the SB2C. I question how many dive bombers actually dived at 90 degrees. To the pilot an 85 or 80 degree dive must have felt like you were going straight down.

 

[vikingBerserker]

That was a pretty good read.

 

[Glider]

To the pilot an 85 or 80 degree dive must have felt like you were going straight down.

I have never tried a 85 degree dive, but have had to do a number of approaches in a 50/60 degree dive and you learn to hold your nerve. Teaching trainees to do it is always an interesting experience, as you can never be certain that they won't freeze.

 

[davebender]

The Corsair was a more accurate dive bomber than the SB2C.

Could the Corsair drop a 1,000 lb bomb at a 45 degree angle?

 

[pbfoot]

Could the Corsair drop a 1,000 lb bomb at a 45 degree angle?

Why not from accounts I've read even the Spits were tasked dive bombing and believe even with the 1000lb bomb in later Normandy

 

[Lucky13]

How do you know, in which angle your dive is in a dive bomber and did they all have a automatic system, in which where you've dropped your bomb the aircraft started to climb?

 

[proton45]

How do you know, in which angle your dive is in a dive bomber and did they all have a automatic system, in which where you've dropped your bomb the aircraft started to climb?

They painted an angle line on the cockpit glass...when the line is "lined-up" with the horizon you are diving at a predetermined angle...

 

[davebender]

I don't think you need this for a 45 degree dive. However I suspect dive brakes are always useful as they allow you to dive at a slower speed, increasing weapon accuracy.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Stuka had a dive angle indicator on the side of the canopy that had inclinations from 30° to 90° and it also possesed an autopilot system that had an indicator that signaled time to pull out of the dive as well as a component of the system that held the aircraft in a "pullout" condition until the pilot recovered from the potential force of 6g.

 

[proton45]

I don't think you need this for a 45 degree dive. However I suspect dive brakes are always useful as they allow you to dive at a slower speed, increasing weapon accuracy.

Tell it to the "RML"...

 

[renrich]

The Corsair could and did dive bomb at 80 degrees or so and tests by the Navy showed it was almost as accurate as the SBD and more accurate than the SB2C.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I'm curious, how did they aim, just point the nose at the target?

 

[davebender]

80 degrees is plenty. Now you just need dive brakes to improve bombing accuracy. Then you could cancel the Skyraider divebomber program.

 

[Lucky13]

But could it carry anywhere near as much as the "Spad", or stay on target for the same amount of time?

 

[renrich]

The Corsair did have dive brakes. There was a setting where the landing gear was partially put down and there was a flat plate which acted as a dive brake. The Corsair was first used as a dive bomber on March 18, 1944. eight F4Us of VMF 111 based on Makin drop 1000 bombs on Mille. It was found that the AC could be used safely in dives up to an angle of 85 degrees. The dive brake option could not be used above 225 knots. The recorded percentage of hits on a 76 M target circle is only about 7 % less than the SBD. I believe that the max bomb load ever carried by the Corsair was 4000 pounds. The AD could carry a substantially bigger load.

 

[davebender]

I'm not suggesting the F4U would remain the standard American CAS aircraft for the next 20 years. But it's plenty good enough to finish WWII. This allows you to skip the Skyraider and transition directly to new technology during the late 1940s. Something like the turboprop powered A2D Skyshark.

A2D Skyshark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[syscom3]

The Skyraider had many capabilities that the Corsair didnt have.

I will agree with your statement about the F4U taking over the dive bombing mission during WW2, but once the Skyraider joined the fleet, then it was a diffferent "ball game".

And the fact that the Skyraider soldiered on in many different missions all the way till the mid 70's, while the Corsair faded away rapidly after Korea, only underscores that when it came to attack, the The "Able Dog" was the more successfull of the two.

 

[proton45]

The Skyraider had many capabilities that the Corsair didnt have.

I will agree with your statement about the F4U taking over the dive bombing mission during WW2, but once the Skyraider joined the fleet, then it was a diffferent "ball game".

And the fact that the Skyraider soldiered on in many different missions all the way till the mid 70's, while the Corsair faded away rapidly after Korea, only underscores that when it came to attack, the The "Able Dog" was the more successfull of the two.

I thought that one of the main reasons it stayed in service for so long was that their was nothing to replace it... Didn't the "Brass" (or bean counters) assume that the (multi-purpose) jet powered fighters would be the next wave in ground support? However practical use, in combat, showed that the Skyraider was more durable then the jet aeroplanes...I believe that even during the Vietnam war it was being phased out of use, and the South Vietnamese airforce was being trained to take over duty's.