Ta152-H1 uber-fighter?

[Njaco]

Erich, isn't Milosh's pic representative of the Schasenberg(?) staffel that protected JV 44 and NOT JG 54 which protected JG 7 in late '44?

 

[Erich]

C ~ Sachsenburg/Würger staffel is one and the same, my above posting yes states JV 44. JG 7 DID NOT have a protection staffel. JG 54 Doras protected Kommando Nowotny's unit until he was KIA in action of which then this jet kommando was dissolved and became the basis for the future JG 7 but the famous jet unit still did not have any air protection.. ... ...

still confused ?

 

[GregP]

Perhaps both of the Ta 152C's that were operational when the war ended did double duty. Who can say?

Let's just say we disagree on this one and let it go.

I wish there were a Ta 152 of any variety airworthy today. Then, whether or not it was airfield protection or not, we could hear and see it fly.

 

[Erich]

Greg no disrespect but who is coming up with the statement(s) that the TA flew high cover, nobody I have engaged in this conversation can give me details; 45 years of research on the Ta and JG 301 by myself says a big fat NO.

Osprey, Wiki ? or .............

 

[GregP]

I looked back at the first page of this post and had to laugh. I see Udet posted that there were "many victories scoed at low level by the Ta-152."

The sum total of Ta-152 victores is known to anywhere from 7 to 10. I don't think that qualifies as "many" when trying to settle a point of discussion, es[ecially when Erich Hartmann, all by himslef, shot down 352 in Me 109's. If 7 to 10 is the measure of the Ta-152, it comes up well short of a great plane.

 

[Erich]

think the point is that the Ta had the potential but that is it, plus E. Hartmanns score has been diminished great;ly as not being the top scorer amongst LW fighter pilots. sorry to be a hard hat about this .......................... there are numerous threads of my links and materials on JG 301 in this whole forum that can be attested to. the high cover thing is compared to the 1st page of this lengthy thread about the Ta's invented to chase down B-29's, heck the LW pilots didn't even know what a B-29 was.

 

[Njaco]

MY mistake E, meant Nowotny and not JG 7.

 

[GregP]

I don't doubt the Ta-152 had potential. I am a big fan in fact.

But in the actual war, it did not perform very well when you look at losses and victories. I have said many times before that I believe that could easily be to the war situation at the time, the tactics employed, and many other factors. But the facts are the facts; the Ta-152 may well have had the potential, but it never showed in real life.

They never got more than about 43 or 44 into the field, never more than about 25 at the same time in the entire world, and they were never all at the same place for a single mission. Basically, the Germans fielded prototypes that weren't ready for deployment and they had no mechanics trained on Ta-152's (they relied on experience with the Fw 190D), and had no spare parts logistics train. Often, when a Ta-152 broke, it never flew again. When the war ended, only two Ta-152C's were operational. The rest were destroyed or were broken so as to be unairworthy. Usually, the malfunction was in the engine or systems (such as cooling or hydraulic); the airframes were pretty robust.

So I just don't get this "the Ta-152 was the best" stuff because the war record is simply not there to make that statement.

We had some Luftwaffe pilots at the palens of Fame who flew Me 109s, Fw 190s, and Ta 152s. I wasn't there and will have to ask names, but I got the report that they all loved the Me 109, liked but never really got used to the Fw 190, and thought the Ta 152 had great potential, but that it was not ready for deployment and was, in fact, used for both intercept missions as well as airfield protection for the jets. As I said, I'll ask in the next couple of weekends and get back with names. I really don't care at all about units ... I love the planes, not the military organizations. Restoring and fyling the planes is what keeps me there. Lest you think I am anti-military, I served in US Air Force, so that is really not the case. I'm just a big fan of the aircraft, not the war.

To me, Erich Hartmann will always have 352 victories (and Barkhorn and Rall at 301 and 275). I do not recognize modern revisionists who weren't there and didn't fight in the fray, but feel that sifting through other people's papers will reveal the truth. How do they know they haven't missed some papers that corroborate the claims they want to strike? The papers could simply be lost or have gone missing over time. That's why Boyington will always be at 28 for me. Both Hartmann and Boyington were awarded their victories at the time by the people in charge at the time. That's good enough for me.

But hey, if you believe the revisionist's lesser victory list, then that's OK. I simply think you are wrong and I don't want to fight about it. You won't change my mind. hTh war awards were the war awards, and time won't change it.

Cheers!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think the Ta 152 had great potential to be a great fighter, and potential to be the best fighter.

I don't think it ever had the chance however to be either of those, especially not in the situation it was placed in.

 

[renrich]

As far as claims of shootdowns and credits are concerned, Butch O Hare became an "ace in a day" in his famous mission where he first claimed six G4M land attack bombers which was reduced to five. Lundstrom in "The First Team" discovered that Japanese records showed that only three G4Ms in that mission were shot down. Later, in researching the actual records of both the USN and IJN during the period December 7, 1941 through November, 1942, regarding the combats between F4Fs and A6Ms he found that the actual shoot downs were about equal, roughly 30-30. Claims and claims credited were in excess of those numbers on both sides. To me, if by some means, the true figures could be ascertained, most pilot's records would be reduced by 30%-50%.. That would of phantom kills.

 

[Dcazz7606]

I have an article that is buried in several Rubbermaid tubs that would take days and a trip to the chiropractor if I searched but... I recall after at least 10 years an article that described the 356(?)th fighter group modifying a couple of their Thunderbolts in order to get them to fly high enough and fast enough to engage the TA's at high altitude. It said they removed camo paint on all leading edges, took out 4 guns, reduced armor to lighten the ship and I believe a wax coating was applied.They called them "superbolts, obviously unaware of any stateside XP designations.
The Ta152's must have posed a serious problem for our fighters as we went to great lenghts for a solution. Fortunatly as stated in previous posts it was too late.
The only thing that bothers me about this is I can't remember the results of any combat that came from it.

Dave Caswell

 

[Erich]

the 356th fg had changed over to the P-51D in December 1944 and had not even heard of the Ta 152H as it did not come into III./JG 301 until Januarys 45 end. so with that the article is full of errors obviously. what is unique about the 356th fg is the pilots impressions of flying against the 262; have had the honour of conversing with a minimum of 15 of the former Jug and Mustang pilots of this little know fg.

 

[GregP]

If you want to revise the victory totals, then do it for EVERYBODY, not just the high-scoring aces.

I have a complete list of Erich Hartmann's victories (all 352) with dates and times of victories and type for many). If you want to sift through his, do it for ALL Luftwaffe pilots, all Japanese pilots, all US pilots, all British pilots, etc. There were about 133,066 aircraft shot down by individual pilots in WWII by something like 11,054 pilots, with 4,862 shared kills. That totals 137,928 victories.

Good luck in your research.

If you can't find the data for most of them (and you can't), then don't revise ANY of tnem or you are doing a disservice to the ones whose scoes you reduce. Selective research is what I object to. Either do it or don't do it, but don't do iy for just some people; do it for everyone or refrain.

 

[Jenisch]

Aircraft like the Ta-152 were expected to appear. The Allies had similar models under development, such as the P-51H. Not to mention the promising jet propulsion.

 

[Erich]

think the Ta was actually being refused by III./JG 301 pilots as very few of the 35 accounted for in that group stayed with 3rd gruppe the unit changing back to the heavy A-8, some A-9's and finally the Dora 9's in few numbers the remnants going over to Stab JG 301. being a Reich defense unit in the rare occurrence of engaging both US/British and Soviet A/C it was always on the move, it was not used in it's primary role of high alt interceptor but piecemeal at mid alt of which it engaged British and especially Soviet fighters.................... what a waste of resources.

 

[Dcazz7606]

It's possible I have the wrong group hence the ? mark. I'm posting from a long way back. If i ever find it I'll clarify.

the 356th fg had changed over to the P-51D in December 1944 and had not even heard of the Ta 152H as it did not come into III./JG 301 until Januarys 45 end. so with that the article is full of errors obviously. what is unique about the 356th fg is the pilots impressions of flying against the 262; have had the honour of conversing with a minimum of 15 of the former Jug and Mustang pilots of this little know fg.

 

[Erich]

again no matter what US group claims to have re-treaded their Jugs to chase Ta's no US fg knew of the Ta until February of 45, even JG 301 crews did not know of the Ta until it was delivered piecemeal towards 1945 January's end. even then for III./JG 301 it was so scattered the units A-8/A-9's in February 45 were used on stupid ground attack missions against the Soviets, even II. gruppes Doras.

 

[drgondog]

It's possible I have the wrong group hence the ? mark. I'm posting from a long way back. If i ever find it I'll clarify.

The 56FG had P-47M's and some pilots yanked half to 8 gun .50 cal battery to lighten it up. But not because of the Ta 152

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Great info guys, I've enjoyed reading this. For what it's worth, this is what Wiki says about the -152 operational history. Note the "citation needed" or "verification needed notes within the text;

By fall 1944, the war was going very badly for Germany, and the RLM pushed Focke-Wulf to quickly get the Ta 152 into production. As a result, several Ta 152 prototypes crashed early into the test program. It was found that critical systems were lacking sufficient quality control. Problems arose with superchargers, pressurized cockpits leaked, the engine cooling system was unreliable at best due in part to unreliable oil temperature monitoring, and in several instances the landing gear failed to properly retract. A total of up to 20 pre-production Ta 152 H-0s were delivered from November 1944 to Erprobungskommando Ta 152 to service test the aircraft. It was reported that test pilots were able to conduct a mere 31 hours of flight tests before full production started. By the end of January 1945, only 50 hours or so had been completed. The Ta 152 was not afforded the time to work out all the little quirks and errors plaguing all new designs. These problems proved impossible to rectify given the situation in Germany towards the end of the war, and only two Ta 152C remained operational when Germany surrendered.[citation needed]

III./Jagdgeschwader 301, initially a Luftwaffe Wilde Sau unit, was ordered to convert to the type in January 1945, which it did (and flew them operationally for a short time). In the end, available Ta 152s were pooled in a special Stabstaffel JG 301, first based at Alteno, then at Neustadt-Glewe in Mecklenburg.[citation needed] The Stabstaffel never had more than 15 Ta 152Hs available, both H-0s and H-1s. Since the usual transfer system had broken down, pilots had to look for additional 152s themselves.[citation needed]

An early Ta 152 combat occurred on 14 April 1945 when Oberfeldwebel Willi Reschke tried to intercept a De Havilland Mosquito over Stendal, but failed to catch up due to engine trouble.[9][page needed] On the evening of that same day, Reschke was to demonstrate that the Ta 152H could be used as a low altitude fighter. A section of four Hawker Tempest Vs of 486(NZ) Squadron were out on patrol. After attacking a train near Ludwigslust, the section split up into pairs; Wing Commander Brooker ordered the Tempests flown by Flying Officer S.J. Short and Warrant Officer Owen J. Mitchell to make their own way back to base. On the way back, this pair, which was strafing targets along the railway tracks near Ludwigslust, was spotted by lookouts posted at Neustadt-Glewe. Three Ta 152s—flown by Reschke, Oberstleutnant Aufhammer and Oberfeldwebel Sepp Sattler—were scrambled, catching the Tempests by surprise. Reschke declared:

We reached the position at an altitude of 200 metres, just at the moment when both Tempests after diving started climbing again. Just as the dogfight was developing Sepp Sattler, on our side, was hit and his plane fell like a stone out of the sky ... The Tempest which I attacked quickly reached the same height as me and was [at] approximately 10 o'clock before me. The dogfight began between 50 and 100 metres above ground level and very often the wing tips passed close over the treetops ... The whole fight was executed in a left-hand turn, the low altitude of which would not allow for any mistakes. Ever so gradually I gained metre-by-metre on the Tempest and after a few circles, I had reached the most favourable shooting position ... I pressed my machine gun buttons[10] for the first time ... I could see the Tempest for a short moment in straight ahead flight displaying slightly erratic flying behaviour. But immediately she went straight back into the left turn ... I sighted the Tempest very favourably in my cross hairs and could not have missed, but my machine guns experienced feeding problems. I therefore tried to shoot it down with my cannon and forced her into a tight left-hand turn from where she tipped out over her right wing and crashed into a forest.

(A more detailed and slightly different account of this incident, also by Reschke, is given in 'Fw190 Aces on the Attack' published by Osprey)

Lt. Owen J. Mitchell (a rookie with only a month and half of experience on the front line[11]) was flying the Tempest and was killed on impact with the ground.[12] It is thought that Sattler had been shot down either by Short or Bill Shaw of 486 Sqn, who claimed a Bf 109 in the same area (the Ta 152s were mistaken for 109s).[13][14] [15] Operational missions were flown in April 1945 from Neustadt, mostly escorting close support aircraft to the Battle of Berlin. Reschke claimed two Yakovlev Yak-9s near Berlin on 24 April,. It seems that three often reported victory claims by Obfw. Walter Loos, on 24, 25 and 30 April [16][verification needed]), cannot be attributed to Ta 152. Loos himself stated he never shot down a single enemy fighter while flying the Ta 152 [17][verification needed]).

The Ta 152 score at the end of the war was likely seven victories and four losses in air combat (a degree of uncertainty about those numbers exists). Four victories were achieved by Josef Keil, from 1 March 1945 to 21 April 1945.[18] The statement that he had five victories on Ta 152 is unsubstantiated and is shown to be false by matching score table and dates. The Ta 152 was delivered to JG 301 on 27 February 1945 and the first Ta 152 combat action against American bombers happened on 2 March 1945,[19] so his victory against a B-17 on 20 February 1945 couldn't have been achieved flying that type of fighter. Alternatively, this results from an incorrect reading of published sources such as Lowe [20] because JG 301 had the Ta 152 in service from late January 1945, and individual missions such as Keil's could well have been flown. At least three victories were achieved by Willi Reschke.[21]

The four losses in air combat were: Hptm. Hermann Stahl, KIA on 11 April 1945; Obfw. Sepp Sattler, KIA on 14 April 1945; two unknown JG11 pilots, downed by Spitfires in the last days of April 1945 during transfer from Neustadt-Glewe to Leck airfield.[22]

The total Ta 152 production is not well known but 43 are identified,[1] (H-0 and H-1) with c.6 prototypes.

What I thought was interesting is despite the sometimes sketchy sources you would find on Wiki, this article says nothing about the me 262 or the Ta 152 being deployed to protect it. A myth busted? I know what Erich has to say about that!

 

[Jenisch]

I think the intelligence units could have alerted the fighter units that it would be possible the appearance of aircraft like the Ta 152. So, some commanders could have think of modifications like the one cited about the P-47. However it would only make sense implement such modifications in case it was constated their presence.