A
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DerAdlerIstGelandet said:Dont take me wrong, I think the A looked great but the Dora was just beautiful. And yes the Dora was a better aircraft too. As Erich said they were used for 2 different roles also, but the Dora was the better all around aircraft and yes Lanc looked better!
For the second time today, I quite agree with RG!RG_Lunatic said:As for looks, that's just a matter of personal taste. I have a model of a 190A4 that I think looks awsome 8)
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Lunatic
Nonskimmer said:For the second time today, I quite agree with RG!RG_Lunatic said:As for looks, that's just a matter of personal taste. I have a model of a 190A4 that I think looks awsome 8)
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Lunatic
RG_Lunatic said:DerAdlerIstGelandet said:Dont take me wrong, I think the A looked great but the Dora was just beautiful. And yes the Dora was a better aircraft too. As Erich said they were used for 2 different roles also, but the Dora was the better all around aircraft and yes Lanc looked better!
The Dora9 was faster, but I think the A6 was the best turning of the 190's. The A's also rolled better than the Dora or TA.
As for looks, that's just a matter of personal taste. I have a model of a 190A4 that I think looks awsome 8)
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Lunatic
Soren said:RG_Lunatic said:DerAdlerIstGelandet said:Dont take me wrong, I think the A looked great but the Dora was just beautiful. And yes the Dora was a better aircraft too. As Erich said they were used for 2 different roles also, but the Dora was the better all around aircraft and yes Lanc looked better!
The Dora9 was faster, but I think the A6 was the best turning of the 190's. The A's also rolled better than the Dora or TA.
As for looks, that's just a matter of personal taste. I have a model of a 190A4 that I think looks awsome 8)
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Lunatic
RG, the "Dora" was the tightest turning FW-190, and this is a commonly known fact for those who have studied the plane or read detailed books about it.
FOCKE-WULF 190G
Almost concurrently with the start of production of Fw 190F close support attack version (Schlachtflugzeug), its derivative emerged from the production lines - an extended range fighter-bomber, Jabo-Rei (Jagdbomber mit vergrosserter Reichweite), designated Fw 190G. This version was an attempt to cope with the service units' need for a fighter with the capability of carrying ground attack weapons to distances considerably greater than 500-600 km (the range of a Fw 190F).
FOCKE-WULF 190G-1
During the development of this new version, elements of the Fw 190A-4/U8 long range fighter-bomber were used, in which range extension was obtained by use of two dropable underwing fuel tanks of 300 liters capacity each. These tanks were carried on VTr-Ju87 pylons produced by the Weserflug company, with duralumin profiled fairings. However, the increase in fuel weight to 880 kg could considerably reduce aircraft performance and extend takeoff length to the point of reducing the operational ability of the plane from smaller airfields. It was necessary to reduce plane weight.
This could be realized by the reduction of plane armor or armament. The designers applied the second solution and removed the fuselage mounted MG 17 7.9 mm machine guns and resisted applying a second pair of cannons in the wings. This new Fw 190G-1 had armament reduced to only two MG 151/20 E 20 mm cannons mounted in the wing roots with a reduced 150 rounds per cannon ammunition.
For offensive armament the under-fuselage ETC 501 bomb rack could carry 250 and 500 kg bombs or four small 50 kg bombs after the ER 4 adapter applied. The radio equipment suite deleted the FuG 25a IFF device and often the radio altimeter was not mounted. Because of the extended engine operational time it was suggested that an additional oil tank be mounted under the cowling, near the windshield, in the place of the previously used MG 17 machine guns. About 50 Fw 190A-4/U8 planes were produced that were included in the G series and got the official designation Fw 190G-1. During production, the shields of the underwing munitions locks were slightly enlarged and stiffened.
FOCKE-WULF 190G-2
The new Fw 190G-2 model was developed from the A-5 series fuselage and its fighter-bomber U8 modification kit (A-5/U8). It had the same modifications as used in the A-4/U8 plane. Additional fuel (468 kg) was placed in underwing fuel tanks but (except for a few early specimens) carried under the wings on simpler V.Mtt-Schlos locks, with two side struts - stabilizers. Duralumin profiled firings were not used in this plane, because despite its good aerodynamics during the flight to the target, when tanks were mounted, after tank ejection the fairing's influence was highly disruptive - aerodynamical drag was increased, fuel consumption increased and maximum speed was reduced by 40 km/hr. Locks without fairings were beneficial in both flight phases and after tank ejection small locks reduced the speed by only 15 km/hr. As in the Fw 190G-1, some planes got an additional oil tank. There were also some planes adapted for night operations designated Fw 190G-2/N. The main difference was application of flame dampers to protect the pilot from blinding and to reduce the possibility of early detection of the plane by enemy antiaircraft defence. A smaller change worth a word is the application of landing lights to the left wing leading edge (in all planes).
FOCKE-WULF 190G-3
During the summer of 1943 production of modified Fw 190G-3 planes started. In this series the wing from the Fw 190 A-6 plane was applied as standard and underwing shackles for fuel tanks were replaced by similar ETC 501 V.Fw Trg (Verkleideter Focke-Wulf Trager) bomb racks. This solution gives this version the ability to carry both fuel tanks and 250 kg bombs, this considerably increased offensive plane capabilities. In addition to this change, the Fw 190G-3 plane was equipped with the autopilot device PKS 11 (also the more modern version: PKS 12) to reduce pilot work load during long range flights (maximum flight time for Fw 190G was about 2.5 hours). Beginning in October 1943 Fw 190G-3 and later version planes were powered by the BMW 801 D-2 engine adapted for C3 (96 octane) fuel and fitted with an additional injector in the left supercharger inlet. That made it possible to briefly (10-15 min.) increase engine power during flights at low altitudes (under 1000 m).
The Fw 190G-3 had also a desert version, G-3 tp, with anti-dust filters and other equipment useful during operations over desert regions or over regions with similar conditions. Some planes were modified by mounting equipment provided for R kits used for G version:
Fw 190G-3/R1 - heavily armed attack fighter with two WB 151/20 pylons in place of underwing V.Fw Trg. racks. This variant had armament of 2x1 MG 151/20 E with 250 rounds per cannon and 2x2 MG 151/20 E with 125 rounds per cannon. This modernization was ordered in September 1943 to be made by LZA workshops at Sagan-Kupper Air Base. These planes did not have the autopilot device or additional armor. Planes would have been used for bomber formation attack and ground attack.
Fw 190G-3/R5 - close support attack aircraft modified similar to the F-3/R1 standard. In place of V.Fw Trg. racks, ETC 50 bomb racks (2x2 50 kg bombs) were mounted. In this modification, no additional armor and oil tank were applied. Some planes were again equipped with fuselage mounted MG 17 machine guns. Most of the planes had the autopilot device.
FOCKE-WULF 190G-8
Next, and the last production series of the G version, was the Fw 190G-8 plane (G-4 to G-7 variant designated small modifications that were not realized). Basis for this version was the A-8 airframe. It included all modification applied to this version and the enlarged cockpit canopy from the Fw 190F-8. Some G-8 planes also got flame dampers (version G-8/N adapted for night operation). Despite the fact that the plane did not have fuselage mounted machine guns, the G-8 got new, enlarged upper covers forward of the cockpit, adapted for MG 131 machine gun mounting. For transportation of additional fuel tanks and bombs the new ETC 503 bomb racks were used. To widen Fw 190G-8 operational use, the following Rustsatz kits were provided:
Fw 190G-8/R4 - an unrealized project of a plane equipped with a GM 1 installation for nitrogen monoxide (N2O) injection for increased power rising (larger amount of oxygen available for combustion) at high altitudes.
Fw 190G-8/R5 - had four underwing ETC 50 (or ETC 70) bomb racks in place of two ETC 503.
Production of G-8 version continued from September 1943 to February 1944, when production of the Fw 190G-8 was abandoned in favor of modified F-8 series planes. This was connected with the tendency to simplify the production process. In the late series G-8 planes (from February 1944), the autopilot device was not used . In the late Fw 190G-8 (after mounting MG 131 machine guns) there were no longer differences between this version and the Fw 190F-8 attack aircraft type (G-8 = F-8/U1 in the version with ETC 503 bomb racks, and G-8/R5 = F-8/R1 also).
In an emergency, single Fw 190G planes were adapted for the transportation of high weight bombs under the fuselage (1000, 1600 and 1800 kg). In this modification, the shock absorber leg was strengthened and wheels with strengthened tires were used. Also used were special bomb racks (Schlos 1000 or 2000) in place of the ETC 501 bomb rack. The Fw 190G planes with these higher bomb loads needed as long as 1200-1300 m of runway for takeoff.
About 800 Fw 190G planes of all versions were produced. It was also the last version of the Fw 190 powered by a radial engine. We must also admit that finding the true number of planes produced is impossible for the following reasons: first - full documentation is not in existence from all Focke-Wulf airframe factories and companies manufacturing the plane under licence, second - we don't know how many airframes (particularly F series) were assembled in special small workshops (e.g. Menibum), whose main aim was building of torpedo and other variants for special purposes. The other complicating factor, sometimes making detailed compilation impossible is that some planes were assembled in field workshops where airframes and engines from planes withdrawn from service units were recycled. In this process, fully operational planes were made from parts of heavily damaged fighters withdrawn from service. For example, from a plane with a heavily damaged airframe, wings were taken and mounted to another plane with damaged wings. Often such 'composited' planes had tail and engine taken from other Fw 190A, F or G. These composite planes, sometimes a completely new 'version', received new individual serial numbers and were sent to a field unit after a test flight .
Example of this practice is seen in a Fw 190F-8/R-1 plane stored in the National Air and Space Museum (NASM) in Washington, USA. When, after storage in the Silver Hill facility, the process of restoration started, the old identification plate on the fuselage with serial number (Werk Nummer) W.Nr. 640069 was found. This is evidence that the airframe was taken from an A-7 plane. After rebuilding during the war, this particular plane was modified to Fw 190F-8 standard, got a new serial number (W.Nr. 931884) and was again sent to a service unit. The number of Fw 190Fighters produced with radial engines is probably 17000 planes minimum. Some authors quote higher numbers, but because each source is different, these numbers are not credible. Of course, the development of the Fw 190 plane did not end with the A, F and G versions, but continued with water-cooled in-line engines.
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/fw190.html
KraziKanuK said:You need to expand your reading RG.
Many Allied pilots have commented on that the only late war a/c that gave them any real trouble was the Dora. It is a wonder that any have heard of the Spit XIV since there was less than 1/2 the war time number (~750) produced than for the Dora(~1800).
What was not so optimal aboutf the Dora's coolant system?
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:Everything I have read confirms what Udet is saying about the evolution of the Fw-190 culminating in the Ta-152. I am not convinced that the P-51H was the greatest high alltitude aircraft produced in WW2 because it did not match up against a Ta-152H. The Dora was a magnificent aircraft and so was the Ta-152. Everything I have read about it says so and everything about the 152 leads to saying that it was the best high alltitude fighter to hit service during WW2.
and the longer rear fuselage with no significant increase in elevator area implies a reduced rate of turn.
Soren said:Oh for christs sake RG, would you stop that Pro-U.S. attitude !!
Every U.S. plane is a "WINNER" in your eyes, and you have a very hard time seeing their shortcomings ! While you have very easy time seeing bad things about Axis aircraft !
If the Fw-190's and 109's were so bad compared to the Allied fighters, then how come they did so well considdering their situation ?
Germany had so many pilots flying the 190's and 109's who scored over 50 kills on the W-front, that it if they were flying "Inferior" planes these scores would have been TOTALLY impossible !
Soren said:and the longer rear fuselage with no significant increase in elevator area implies a reduced rate of turn.
I hope after re-reading this comment made by you, you will realize how stupid it was !
First of all the elevator area on the 190 wasnt that small, as it was very wide, but narrow. And secondly this elevator area has nothing to do with the 190's ability to turn !
Soren said:Think about it, if all you needed for a better turn-rate was to increase the elevator area then it most certainly would have been made large on every fighter ! It just aint that easy !
Soren said:The A6M "Zero" had a very small elevator area, but it outturned every Allied fighter it met !
KraziKanuK said:No RG, only ~750 Spit XIVs were delivered before VE-Day as I just resently had to go through StH and had a look at the serial numbers. A goodly proportion of those 750 were on ships going to other theatres.
KraziKanuK said:Well you had better revise your Dora data base as the number produced was 1826.
KraziKanuK said:Strange that the V21 exhibited low coolant temperatures during testing, dispite being, according to, not being very efficient.
The F4U-4 never served in the ETO. The P-47M and N's only served in tiny numbers. The P-51 and P-47D had already beaten the Germans, there was no need to post the best new fighters to the ETO in 1945.
Defense is easier than offense.
The Germans were defending against allied aircraft that had flown hundreds of miles into enemy territory. The advantage lay entirely with the Germans.
My point is there was no difference between the elevator on the 190A vs the 190D. The size is not important, only that it is the same on both planes.
Says who? W.r.t. the size and geometry used, the Zero elevator was large.
KraziKanuK said:As for you references on Dora production, they are out of date.