MacArther
Staff Sergeant
Give me the day, and I should be able to post some scans of great combat paintings concerning 109s
The Bf-109 Thread
- Thread starter DerAdlerIstGelandet
- Start date
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delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Nicely done, Adler.
I don´t have such knowledge in detail, so please let me ask a question:
While most agree that the Bf-109F4 was pinnacle of it´s evolution (factoring flight behavior also), I read that the Bf-109 G2 was even better. This variant replaced almost all fron service Bf-109 in late 1942, it had the same weaponry and therefore the same aerodynamic clean lines (no Beule for MG 131). But it was powered by an early DB 605, giving this plane extraordinary acceleration, climb and top speed (I read figures between 656 Km/h and 666 Km/h, but don´t know about the altitudes).
Wouldn´t this make the G2 faster than the G6(early)? And how about the weight? What is the difference between F4-G2- and G6?
I don´t have such knowledge in detail, so please let me ask a question:
While most agree that the Bf-109F4 was pinnacle of it´s evolution (factoring flight behavior also), I read that the Bf-109 G2 was even better. This variant replaced almost all fron service Bf-109 in late 1942, it had the same weaponry and therefore the same aerodynamic clean lines (no Beule for MG 131). But it was powered by an early DB 605, giving this plane extraordinary acceleration, climb and top speed (I read figures between 656 Km/h and 666 Km/h, but don´t know about the altitudes).
Wouldn´t this make the G2 faster than the G6(early)? And how about the weight? What is the difference between F4-G2- and G6?
- Thread starter
- #23
Again this is off the top of my head so I might be wrong I will look it up later to confirm or correct what I just posted but this is what I have here:
Bf-109F-4
Weight Empty: 2590kg
Weight Loaded: 3117kg
Max Speed: 624 kmh
Bf-109G-6
Weight Empty: 2700kg
Weight Loaded: 3150kg
Max Speed: 623kmh
As for the G-2 performance I am not sure on how it compared to the G-6
I do however know that the G-2 was a non pressurized version of the G-1 with the pilots seat completely armoured and cockpit venilation vents fitted. Other than that it was identical to the G-1 which was identical to the F-4 but with the DB-605A engine but with a wider intake and a Fo-870 oil cooler, wider 3 blade VDM 3 meter propellor and pressureized.
There were 1587 G-2's built.
Bf-109F-4
Weight Empty: 2590kg
Weight Loaded: 3117kg
Max Speed: 624 kmh
Bf-109G-6
Weight Empty: 2700kg
Weight Loaded: 3150kg
Max Speed: 623kmh
As for the G-2 performance I am not sure on how it compared to the G-6
I do however know that the G-2 was a non pressurized version of the G-1 with the pilots seat completely armoured and cockpit venilation vents fitted. Other than that it was identical to the G-1 which was identical to the F-4 but with the DB-605A engine but with a wider intake and a Fo-870 oil cooler, wider 3 blade VDM 3 meter propellor and pressureized.
There were 1587 G-2's built.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Thanks, Adler. I am abit surprised that the difference in weight isn´t that much between F4 and G6 (G2 should weight less than G6 because of the lighter armrment, right?), resp. G2. I always read that the plane (G6) wasn´t that agile because it was much heavier than the F4.
How can the speed difference be explained? 654 Km/h for G2 and 623 only for the G6 (which isn´t faster than a F4!), wow.
How can the speed difference be explained? 654 Km/h for G2 and 623 only for the G6 (which isn´t faster than a F4!), wow.
- Thread starter
- #25
I am going to have to look up the actual figures.
Erich
the old Sage
will add a touch but reserved for one of my books. The G-6/AS became apparent as one of the most important 109's for reeiving the appearance of the vaunted P-61B in the spring of 1944. II./JG 11 and and the high altitude staffel 2./Jg 3 and later I./Jg 3 as a whole were equipped, 109 gruppe of jG 1 later as well. Crat wre painted in overall RLM 76 licht-Blau for these close to 30,000 feet escapades. The (two)? stage supercharger equipped units could give an incrase in overall speed performance for a max of 10 minutes if not pushed to hard but under combat experience it was found it could also go to about 20 minutes but in due course suffer from blown piston(s) and a pilot then at the mercy of the US fighters. Unfortunately it had been found however even with a better craft for combat that US fighters on most occassions had the upper hand with superior numbers and the superior altitude when engaging.
In August of 44 it was already apparent that Berlinwas getting hammered by obnoxious Mosquito bombers of the RAF LSNF and that local defence of Fw 190A's was not suitable to protect let alone even come close to shooting down the mossies even on a dily basis......thus the Bf 109G-6/AS which could handle the higher altitudes, lighter armor and less "heavy" arms was a God-send to the beleagured Luftwaffe night fighter defences. The craft then became the mainstay of III./JG 300 and esepcially the 10th Nachtstaffel for combating these pesky problems, the 9th and 11st staffels then remained in the day time fighter role. 10th nacht flew the G-6/AS and when obsorbed into II./NJG 11 flew the bird along with increasing numbers of G-14/AS equipment until the G-6/AS was phased out
In August of 44 it was already apparent that Berlinwas getting hammered by obnoxious Mosquito bombers of the RAF LSNF and that local defence of Fw 190A's was not suitable to protect let alone even come close to shooting down the mossies even on a dily basis......thus the Bf 109G-6/AS which could handle the higher altitudes, lighter armor and less "heavy" arms was a God-send to the beleagured Luftwaffe night fighter defences. The craft then became the mainstay of III./JG 300 and esepcially the 10th Nachtstaffel for combating these pesky problems, the 9th and 11st staffels then remained in the day time fighter role. 10th nacht flew the G-6/AS and when obsorbed into II./NJG 11 flew the bird along with increasing numbers of G-14/AS equipment until the G-6/AS was phased out
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
Might want to take a look at this 109 site, http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=7&L=1
- Thread starter
- #28
Cool thanks for the website.
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
Yes a Z was made but was destroyed by bombing, never flew.rebel8303 said:Very nice thread
Dude it seems impossible to me to remember all that numbers for Bf 109
Bf 109 is nice
I like the Z version (extreme firepower)
Do you know if any prototypes where made?
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
From what I know, no Bf-109Z ever left the drawing board. Just a preliminary study with two Klemm Kl-25 used instead of Bf-109, was produced and test flown. The twin performed statisfying.
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
KraziKanuK said:
Very good, interesting the comparative between the F-4 and the FW-190A-2
- Thread starter
- #33
delcyros said:
There was one Bf-109Z-3 prototype built but it was never flown. The Z-1 was 2 Bf-109F airframes mated together and the Z-2 was supposed to have 30mm Cannons.
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
A episode of the Happy days in the Eastern Front.
1941 brought the relocation of JG 51 to the Eastern Front. Here Bär's score rose quickly. On 2 July 1941 he was promoted to Leutnant and awarded the Knight's Cross, having totalled 27 kills. When he reached 60 victories, on 14 August 1941, Bär was decorated with the Oak Leaves. On one day, 30 August 1941, Bär scored 6 Soviet planes. From the beginning of 1942 Bär took command of IV/JG 51, and in mid-February he was awarded by Swords, having achieved 90 kills. In the spring of 1942, Bär was to face significant new challenges - - the heavy air battles in the southern part of the Russo-German Front, the Kerch Peninsula area.
"In these days, two of the Luftwaffe 's top aces arrived to command positions in JG 77 in the Crimea: Hauptmann Gordon Gollob, whose score stood at 86, was sent from the Test Centre at Rechlinto take over as Geschwaderkommodore , and Hauptmann Heinz Bär with 91 victories to his credit was sent from IV./JG 51 on the Moscow front to take charge of I./JG 77. Both were highly awarded - Bär with the Swords to the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves while Gollob carried the Oak Leaves.
These two men were however had diametrically opposed personalities. "Pritzl" Bär, the notoriously undisciplined Lepiziger who simply refused to fly on combat missions whenever he didn't feel 'inspired' and the harsh Nazi follower MacGollob of old Prussian military style definitely would have clashed, had not Bär's I./JG 77 hastily been transferred to the Mediterranean area a few weeks later. However, during the last two weeks of May 1942, Bär and Gollob practically 'took over' the air over the Kerch - Taman area.
On 16 May, Heinz Bär proved his skills by shooting down two LaGG-3s - his 92nd and 93rd victories. Next day, Gollob followed by destroying three R-5 light bombers. He there after attacked a Yak-1 piloted by Sergeant N. K. Chayka. He hit the Yakovlev, saw it go down and returned home, reporting it as his 93rd victory (claiming it as a LaGG-3). Not caring much about the war in general, Gollob started competing with his subordinate in the cynical manner that characterized many of the Luftwaffe fighter aces during World War II. The fate of his last victim didn't bother the ambitious Gollob the slightest. Having suffered severe wounds from the machine guns and automatic cannon in Gollob's Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, the young Sergeant Chayka struggled at the controls of his damaged Yakovlev fighter. He managed to bring it back to the Khersones airfield, but lost control of it during landing and crashed into another Yak-1. Both planes were destroyed and Chayka was killed.
Having returned to base, Gollob learned that Bär meanwhile had bagged three MiG-3s. Hauptmann Gollob continued to strive for successes, picking easy targets during the following days. In contrast to the common fighter tactic of attacking from above, Gollob preferred to sneak up from ground-level, to be surethat no-one tried to attack him from the blind spot beneath. An anonymous pilot of JG 77 wrote the following account of Gollob's way of fighting:
'Gollob flew from Kerch together with his wingman. They positioned themselves at a low altitude beneath a Russian formation. Then they started climbing in spirals, carefully maintaining their position beneath the enemy formation. Before the peacefully flying Russians had even suspected any mischief, the two planes at the bottom of their formation had been shot down and the two Germans were gone.' (Prien: JG 77, p. 1018.)
On 18 May, another three obsolete R-5 bombers fell prey to Gollob's private ambitions, raising his kill score to 96. Yet again he was surpassed by Bär, who got involved in a combat with twelve Soviet fighters over the Tamanskaya Sound and shot down two LaGG-3s. The same day, Heinz Bär's I./JG 77 was visitedby his personal friend, Jagfliegergeneral Adolf Galland . A detail in this context is that a deep animosity eventually would develop between Galland and Gollob. Having sacked Gollob from his post as fighter plane expert due to lacking competence in 1944, Galland as Jagdfliegergeneral soon found himself targeted by Gollob's plotting (in house arrest early in 1945, Galland was informed that Gollob collected material against him regarding his private use of Luftwaffe cars, his gambling and his notorious womanizing).
On 19 May, Gollob and Bär both were in action. The former managed to bring down three R-5s again, but the magical '100th victory' slipped away. Meanwhile, Heinz Bär shot five Ishak fighters from the sky, for which he was mentioned in the OKW bulletin on the following day:
' Hauptmann Bär, the Gruppenkommandeur in a Jagdgeschwader, achieved his 99th to 103rd aerial victories yesterday. The total victory tally of Jagdgeschwader 77 has increased to 2,011.'
Next day, Gollob lurked along the Caucasus coast and managed to bring down a DB-3 bomber - being the tenth German fighter pilot to surpass the 100th victory score - followed by an unhappy LaGG-3."
Text:
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/bar/bar.htm
Drawings: Victor Gonzalez.
1941 brought the relocation of JG 51 to the Eastern Front. Here Bär's score rose quickly. On 2 July 1941 he was promoted to Leutnant and awarded the Knight's Cross, having totalled 27 kills. When he reached 60 victories, on 14 August 1941, Bär was decorated with the Oak Leaves. On one day, 30 August 1941, Bär scored 6 Soviet planes. From the beginning of 1942 Bär took command of IV/JG 51, and in mid-February he was awarded by Swords, having achieved 90 kills. In the spring of 1942, Bär was to face significant new challenges - - the heavy air battles in the southern part of the Russo-German Front, the Kerch Peninsula area.
"In these days, two of the Luftwaffe 's top aces arrived to command positions in JG 77 in the Crimea: Hauptmann Gordon Gollob, whose score stood at 86, was sent from the Test Centre at Rechlinto take over as Geschwaderkommodore , and Hauptmann Heinz Bär with 91 victories to his credit was sent from IV./JG 51 on the Moscow front to take charge of I./JG 77. Both were highly awarded - Bär with the Swords to the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves while Gollob carried the Oak Leaves.
These two men were however had diametrically opposed personalities. "Pritzl" Bär, the notoriously undisciplined Lepiziger who simply refused to fly on combat missions whenever he didn't feel 'inspired' and the harsh Nazi follower MacGollob of old Prussian military style definitely would have clashed, had not Bär's I./JG 77 hastily been transferred to the Mediterranean area a few weeks later. However, during the last two weeks of May 1942, Bär and Gollob practically 'took over' the air over the Kerch - Taman area.
On 16 May, Heinz Bär proved his skills by shooting down two LaGG-3s - his 92nd and 93rd victories. Next day, Gollob followed by destroying three R-5 light bombers. He there after attacked a Yak-1 piloted by Sergeant N. K. Chayka. He hit the Yakovlev, saw it go down and returned home, reporting it as his 93rd victory (claiming it as a LaGG-3). Not caring much about the war in general, Gollob started competing with his subordinate in the cynical manner that characterized many of the Luftwaffe fighter aces during World War II. The fate of his last victim didn't bother the ambitious Gollob the slightest. Having suffered severe wounds from the machine guns and automatic cannon in Gollob's Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, the young Sergeant Chayka struggled at the controls of his damaged Yakovlev fighter. He managed to bring it back to the Khersones airfield, but lost control of it during landing and crashed into another Yak-1. Both planes were destroyed and Chayka was killed.
Having returned to base, Gollob learned that Bär meanwhile had bagged three MiG-3s. Hauptmann Gollob continued to strive for successes, picking easy targets during the following days. In contrast to the common fighter tactic of attacking from above, Gollob preferred to sneak up from ground-level, to be surethat no-one tried to attack him from the blind spot beneath. An anonymous pilot of JG 77 wrote the following account of Gollob's way of fighting:
'Gollob flew from Kerch together with his wingman. They positioned themselves at a low altitude beneath a Russian formation. Then they started climbing in spirals, carefully maintaining their position beneath the enemy formation. Before the peacefully flying Russians had even suspected any mischief, the two planes at the bottom of their formation had been shot down and the two Germans were gone.' (Prien: JG 77, p. 1018.)
On 18 May, another three obsolete R-5 bombers fell prey to Gollob's private ambitions, raising his kill score to 96. Yet again he was surpassed by Bär, who got involved in a combat with twelve Soviet fighters over the Tamanskaya Sound and shot down two LaGG-3s. The same day, Heinz Bär's I./JG 77 was visitedby his personal friend, Jagfliegergeneral Adolf Galland . A detail in this context is that a deep animosity eventually would develop between Galland and Gollob. Having sacked Gollob from his post as fighter plane expert due to lacking competence in 1944, Galland as Jagdfliegergeneral soon found himself targeted by Gollob's plotting (in house arrest early in 1945, Galland was informed that Gollob collected material against him regarding his private use of Luftwaffe cars, his gambling and his notorious womanizing).
On 19 May, Gollob and Bär both were in action. The former managed to bring down three R-5s again, but the magical '100th victory' slipped away. Meanwhile, Heinz Bär shot five Ishak fighters from the sky, for which he was mentioned in the OKW bulletin on the following day:
' Hauptmann Bär, the Gruppenkommandeur in a Jagdgeschwader, achieved his 99th to 103rd aerial victories yesterday. The total victory tally of Jagdgeschwader 77 has increased to 2,011.'
Next day, Gollob lurked along the Caucasus coast and managed to bring down a DB-3 bomber - being the tenth German fighter pilot to surpass the 100th victory score - followed by an unhappy LaGG-3."
Text:
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/bar/bar.htm
Drawings: Victor Gonzalez.
- Thread starter
- #35
Nice info and profiles.
Yep, good stuff CB!
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
And what a hell......more drawings this time from JG-54 pilots.
Two pilots that are most identified with the powerful Fw-190A but started his career in the Bf-109.
JG-54 bagdes:
Two pilots that are most identified with the powerful Fw-190A but started his career in the Bf-109.
JG-54 bagdes:
alejandro_
Airman 1st Class
- 281
- Jul 4, 2005
The G6 had a reinforced structure landing gear, extra armour and reinforced armament. This brought the weight up by 300kg, and the engine power remained the same. The aerodynamics were negative affected too. As a consequence the performance of the G6 was far below than the G2.
Regards
- Thread starter
- #40
That sounds reasonable.
