"The case for the P-47 Thunderbolt being the greatest fighter of the Second World War " (1 Viewer)

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I don't have any single factory production rates for the Spitfire but I Speculate that when sgnificant changes were made to wing etc,, they were not inserted as production articles in all Spitfire plants. Those changes were instituted equally at Inglewood and Dallas and did not disrupt assembly & delivery pace.

And this gets to the heart of the problem...you're speculating. You're also making a false equivalency between US and UK production approaches. The US had 2 big factories because they weren't under risk of enemy attack. The UK had a much more distributed approach because factories had been attacked.

Bottom line, though, is that Spitfires were ordered in distinct batches, just as were P-51s and every other aircraft type. Each batch had modifications but, generally, were internally consistent. There wasn't a need for "all factories" to be on the same page because they were delivering different batches to different modification standards. Again, I think you're overstating the impact of changes on the Spitfire and underestimating the extent of changes in the P-51.

Please feel free to prove me wrong by providing data to show that Spitfire production fell off markedly as each new variant was released. Note that from 1939 to the end of the Battle of Britain, the Spitfire deliveries included MkIa, MkIb, MkII, PR Mk IV, MkVa, and MkVb. If you can show me that the front line suffered despite these many incremental changes, then please do so...otherwise, we need to get out of speculation mode.


The Mustang IA/P-51-NA lifted the Proposed aramament configuration for the Mustang I, as well as propsed armament for the A-36 in original specification. The genesis of the slanted mount that plagued the follow on P-51A/B was the 20mm mount scheme for belt fed Hispano II. Nothing changed with respect jigs and tooling for the wing - save for leading edge planform at root for P-51D - which did not require complex change for anything other than the LE structure from WS 30 to 65. The A-36 changes to install the dive brakes, which included rib and panel changes as well as slightly different gun bay/ammo feed scheme.

And how is this different from the Spitfire? The internal structure of the wing changed to accommodate different armament configurations until the evolution of the "universal" wing. Again, you're minimizing P-51 changes and overstating Spitfire design changes.


Piece of cake had the necessity dictated the need. There is no role that the Spitfire accomplished that was not 'easily' accomodated by the P-51B/D airframe.

It's funny how, when others have argued that the Spitfire could have been adapted into a decent long-range escort, the response is often "couldda, wouldda, shouldda" from the P-51 crowd. Americans keep banging on about long-range, daylight bomber escort and yet that was not a role that the RAF wanted to take on. Similarly, AFAIK, the F-6 was not used for long-range, high-altitude PR. However, you want me to accept that the P-51 could do it? Why not accept that the Spitfire's range could have been significantly extended if there was an operational need?

To get out of speculation mode, though, let's take a look at the internals of the P-51. Installing a vertical camera with a long focal-length lens aft of the cockpit was considerably complicated by the ducting and fuel tank that sat there. Pushing the camera further aft limits the length of the lens that can be fitted....and the lens size is VITAL for high-altitude PR work. It was bad enough in the high-back P-51B/C but the P-51D fuselage got really small aft of the fuel tank. The big issue was the air intake trunking that forced any vertical camera well aft of the cockpit. You literally can't fit a vertical camera further forward than the aft-most point of the pink shaded area in the diagram below:

1680646903962.jpeg


Putting large, heavy cameras with long lenses into a single-engine airframe is never a piece of cake and the P-51 was not a good choice for the role. Sorry to say anything negative about the Mustang but I'm afraid it simply wasn't up to the job. It was fine as a tac recce asset but not for strategic reconnaissance.


Even installing 20mm in the B/D was easily accomodated without a wing change other than the gun bay interior. Those designs andassociated analysis already existed from P-509 to NA-73 to A-36. The external bomb and fuel tank loads dictated the structural examinations - not recoil.

So for the P-51 it was a "new gun bay interior" whereas for the Spitfire it was a "new wing"? How do you figure that? From a front-line perspective, it made ZERO difference. If you were on a squadron with the early P-51 wing (with 30cals) you weren't going to install cannon or even 50 cals in that wing. Same-same for the Spitfire. You talk about minor strengthening in the wing of the P-51 but was the Spitfire any different?


The debate (for me) was definition of growth potential - not growth in fact. Much can be accomplished if the airframe is sound and the changes desired can be accomplished - but at what cost to production, field service complexity and delvery schedules.

And this brings us back to my original point. You're assuming that the changes that the Spitfire underwent significantly impacted production, field servicing and delivery. Over 20,300 Spitfires were produced and it remained in service for 15 years. That's growth potential and growth in fact.
 
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Ignoring Cunliffe-Owen and the occasional official production of 1 a couple of months earlier or later than series production of that mark was being done. Total monthly production by factory 1940 to 1945.
MonthSupermarineCastleBromwichWestland
Jan-40​
37​
I in production
Feb-40​
51​
Mar-40​
40​
Apr-40​
60​
May-40​
77​
Jun-40​
93​
10​
II begin
Jul-40​
137​
23​
Aug-40​
127​
III start
36​
Sep-40​
100​
Factory bombed
56​
Oct-40​
61​
88​
Nov-40​
74​
66​
Dec-40​
42​
75​
Jan-41​
49​
76​
Feb-41​
66​
87​
Mar-41​
67​
V start, I end
132​
Apr-41​
74​
80​
May-41​
97​
III end
115​
V begin
Jun-41​
102​
IV start
103​
Jul-41​
80​
89​
II end
2​
I start
Aug-41​
121​
123​
6​
Sep-41​
127​
139​
10​
Oct-41​
102​
151​
9​
Nov-41​
106​
144​
17​
Dec-41​
88​
VI start
145​
12​
V start, I end
Jan-42​
102​
172​
26​
Feb-42​
79​
179​
29​
Mar-42​
118​
208​
28​
Apr-42​
132​
215​
32​
May-42​
118​
220​
31​
Jun-42​
104​
IX and Seafire II start
220​
24​
Jul-42​
109​
220​
37​
Aug-42​
94​
225​
33​
Sep-42​
140​
VII start
240​
40​
Oct-42​
129​
XII start
240​
41​
Nov-42​
110​
VIII and IX start, VI end
220​
48​
Dec-42​
107​
191​
42​
Seafire II start
Jan-43​
131​
220​
37​
Feb-43​
110​
IV end
235​
IX begin
52​
Mar-43​
124​
233​
44​
Apr-43​
98​
Seafire II end
229​
38​
Seafire III start
May-43​
127​
239​
40​
Jun-43​
110​
IX end
241​
32​
Jul-43​
105​
179​
31​
Aug-43​
124​
240​
V end
33​
Sep-43​
133​
XII end
240​
26​
Seafire II end
Oct-43​
133​
XIV start
240​
28​
V end
Nov-43​
125​
181​
28​
Dec-43​
124​
230​
31​
Jan-44​
133​
220​
37​
Feb-44​
131​
247​
46​
Mar-44​
147​
285​
55​
Apr-44​
143​
X and XIX start
289​
F.21 begin
57​
May-44​
138​
VII, X end
304​
54​
Jun-44​
151​
320​
52​
Jul-44​
152​
240​
XVI begin
55​
Aug-44​
112​
311​
35​
Seafire XV Start
Sep-44​
142​
254​
59​
Oct-44​
131​
308​
66​
Nov-44​
127​
286​
66​
Dec-44​
98​
249​
54​
Jan-45​
83​
VIII end
204​
34​
Feb-45​
144​
XI end
275​
68​
Mar-45​
132​
250​
F.22 begin
29​
Apr-45​
103​
150​
66​
Seafire XVII Start
May-45​
100​
XVIII start
145​
52​
Jun-45​
103​
190​
66​
Jul-45​
104​
118​
76​
Seafire III end
Aug-45​
51​
119​
IX end
45​
Sep-45​
69​
78​
XVI end
36​
Oct-45​
53​
63​
27​
Nov-45​
43​
31​
26​
Seafire XV end
Dec-45​
18​
2​
22​
 
Bigger format cameras don't gain you anything if you lack the ability to discern details in the image due to the lens being inadequate. The RAF made extensive use of 24in focal length lenses so that was probably good enough for many tasks. However, the paired F52 cameras with the 36in lenses was a fit for the most numerous PR Spitfire mark which suggests there was a need for the longer focal length.
They may give you some gain.
It depends on the grain size of the film (like pixels per inch in digital cameras).
If I use a large format negative to capture an image I am spreading the image out over more area.
If I use a hypothetical 10 x 10 camera I am using 4 times the negative size (and 4 times the grain/pixel equivalent) to capture the image as 5 x 5 camera.
Now I can do several things. One would be to use a lens sized to make 4 images on the 5 x 5 film that would equal the area that the 10 x 10 camera covers and get the same sized image on the negatives (object occupies the same number of pixels in the image) but that assumes the same quality of lens (also assumes the same quality of film flatness, some of the big cameras used air pressure or suction to flatten the film out in addition to spring pressure). May require more than one camera ;)

With good aim you may very well get the desired target in the photos using a single camera with a high power telephoto lens. a 36in lens on a 5 x 5 negative is about 5 times magnification. a 14 in lens is about 2 power. Rough estimate based on the diagonal of the negative.

IWM-CH10845_F24_205195676.jpg

British cameras for a Mosquito. Three of the F24s and two of the F52s. As we know, other lenses were available. The F24s have 14 in lenses. The F52s are using 20in lenses and have about 1.8 magnification. They are using about 2.38 the amount of film to capture the image on and assuming equal lenses, film grain and film flatness will allow for for more enlargement of the image. The F52 uses a slightly rectangular negative so everything is not quite equal.
 
They may give you some gain.
It depends on the grain size of the film (like pixels per inch in digital cameras).
If I use a large format negative to capture an image I am spreading the image out over more area.

Yes, it will get you some gain...but the amount of detail visible is defined by the focal length. It doesn't matter how fine-grained your film is, nor how big your negative area is, if the incoming image registers as an indistinct blob, then all you get when you zoom in is a larger indistinct blob. Knowing "something" is on the image at a location is far less useful than knowing "what" is there...or being able to measure the item and discern features and characteristics (e.g. the RAF's Peenemunde PR missions).

Of note, the F52 that had the 36in focal length lens in the Spitfire PR MkXI had a negative size of 8.5in x 7in. It would take a lot for a 9in x 9in negative with a 24in focal length lens to beat that for performance.


With good aim you may very well get the desired target in the photos using a single camera with a high power telephoto lens.

But therein lies the problem. Getting good aim from 30,000ft is really, REALLY hard. It doesn't take much of a bank angle to throw the camera completely off the target - it's a very long arm of moment from an aircraft to a point 30,000ft below. Just 3 degrees of bank will move the centre of the camera field of view more than 4 US football field lengths off-target.

Experienced PR pilots would put a chinagraph mark on the canopy to align with the horizon. Keep the mark on the horizon and you know the aircraft has zero bank angle applied. Then all you have to do is ensure you fly directly over the target....without GPS....while keeping a watch out for enemy fighters...and ensuring your camera is operating....and keeping your speed constant so you get the right along-track stereographic overlap...and monitoring engine gauges. It wasn't easy. Those pilots were incredibly skilled and very brave, IMHO.
 
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And were these the high altitude version where the canopy was bolted in place and no way to bail out?

I think that one's a bit of an urban myth...although the release mechanism wasn't great. I found these notes on Britmodeller about the MkVI canopy, a design which bled over into the early MkVII airframes:

- The cabin top is located by three dowel pins and is tightened down by the wedging action of four dogs; the front and rear dogs are conected together by two metal cables which enable the pilot to release.......

- jettisoning of the cabin top is effected by undoing the dogs and pushing the hood into the slip-stream......it is necessary to detach the rubber hose connections before jettisoning the hood. A crowbar, for use in an emergency, is stowed on the left-hand side of the cockpit.
 
I think that one's a bit of an urban myth...although the release mechanism wasn't great. I found these notes on Britmodeller about the MkVI canopy, a design which bled over into the early MkVII airframes:

- The cabin top is located by three dowel pins and is tightened down by the wedging action of four dogs; the front and rear dogs are conected together by two metal cables which enable the pilot to release.......

- jettisoning of the cabin top is effected by undoing the dogs and pushing the hood into the slip-stream......it is necessary to detach the rubber hose connections before jettisoning the hood. A crowbar, for use in an emergency, is stowed on the left-hand side of the cockpit.
I read something in one of those pilot memoirs. Can't remember whose. Tuck's or Johnson's maybe?
 
The whole point of Argument was to draw the LW INTO combat with fighter escort. The directive from Goering was to Avoid fighters and focus entirely on the bombers. I agree it was a joint effort, but the point you were trying to make is that the bombing campaign had to have the P-47 to do the intermediate escort so that the Mustang could achieve LR escort objectives.

That is incorrect, same for 2nd TAF Spitfires, Tempests - and P-51s/47s and P-38s of 9th AF. Leigh Mallory and Brereton quit serving Spaatz in May 1944. They weren't 'involved'.

Tell me again about Spitfires, Tempests and Typhoons co-ordinating with 8th AF operations? (after early 1943)

Tell me again how the P-51B/D could not do 'escort as sole airfame' as 8th AF reduced from 11by aircraft other than the P P-47D FGs to 1 during 1944?
Without interdiction operations by all the other forces including the light two engined bombers groups the Luftwaffe would have been able to attack at their convenience, it was Galland himself who said that. Having fuel ladened P51's cross the channel without the allies having control of the skies would have resulted in the same situation the Luftwaffe had in 1940, ''peeling away'' the escorts as Park put it. The bombing offensive was a joint effort by all the forces involved.
 
Care to revisit Spitfore Performance again - or any other source - to compare available HP to HP required - as you move up in altitude from 25K to 40K
I've already posted evidence showing the P47M couldn't do what it claimed it could do, the engines failed.
 
The P-47 using almost half the amount of fuel as a B-17 is interesting. One engine in a smaller plane against a four engine bomber. That Pratt and Whitney must have been cranking out some mad power. I have read the posts discussing engine output stats but that's a statistic puts it into reality. That's a lot of gas.
 
A rather important statistic is that the Allied fuel planning charts showed that the P-47 units were expected to consume 119 Gallons/hr/aircraft, the P-51 was 65 as was the Spitfire (B-17 for reference = 248)
Did the R2800 use fuel for evaporative cooling under max power?
 

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