The Falklands

[CharlesBronson]

It was in wartime but no in combat, this is one of combat.

Corporal medic in action from the BIM 5th, this marines batallion lost 30 men killed and 170 wounded, also claimed had killed or wounded more than 200 british in combat.

 

[Glider]

British Kicked ASS!
No airborne harrier losses against any the Argies - the worst that happend was a single cannon shot through the fin of a harrier - didnt do much at all lol - SAS rule- wiped out a whole airfield - the only casualty was a guy tripping over and fracturing his leg or spraining it or something lol! 2 ships were lost however because of a stupid mistake of the captain that prevented the sea fox missile system from shooting down the delivering jets....but the longest bombing mission in history was from a few Vulcans and Victor or valiant refueling jets.....

Suggest you check your facts before postinng an aggresive entry.

We did lose Harriers to Ground fire,
The shot through the fin was from ground based 20mm
As mentioned the number of ships lost was not two
It isn't the Sea Fox but the Sea Wolf missile system
The longest bombing mission was one Vulcan at a time with the Victors as tankers

Apart from that I don't think you could have been more incorrect if you had tried.

 

[Matt308]

It was in wartime but no in combat, this is one of combat.

I knew that CB. I was just returning the sarcasm.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Fine, My sarcasm detector is not working



1th May, the first air combat over the Malvinas/Falklands:

By the afternoon a group of three IAI Mirage V "Daggers", armed with three bombs each, attacked a squad of a destroyer and two frigates (the Glamorgan, the Alacrity and the Arrow). At least one ship was reached by a bomb, and the Daggers returned to the continent.

One of the most significatives was the encounter between a couple of Mirages IIIEA wich were giving superior cover to the attack aircraft and a CAP of Sea Harriers.

The argentine aicraft belong to the VII Brigada Aerea and were manned by Capt. Garcia Cuerva and Lt. Carlos Perona in their second mission of the day. The two jets approached the airspace around Task Force 317, which was sailing to the Falklands to retake them from occupying Argentine forces. Sea Harriers were launched to intercept the Mirage fighters. The Mirages fired first at about five miles distance, but their missiles failed to lock on to their targets. Turning to the left the Mirage jets soon found the two Harriers on their tails. Barton fell in behind Perona and Thomas took a bead on the jet flown by Cuerva. Firing their Sidewinder, air-to-air, missiles, the Harrier pilots got a hit on Peronas Mirage. Perona ejected from his aircraft and came down in shallow water near West Falkland Island.

Cuervas Mirage was damaged by the missile fired by Thomas, and he attempted to fly his damaged aircraft back to his base , Cuervas expended their last 30 mm ammo over the HMS Hermes carrier wich was in the strait. In the final aproach to the Pt argentino airbase a electrical failure (obviously caused by combat damage) made a shorcut and it unleash a Magic missile, unfortunately this action confused the AAA gunners wich took the MIII as a enemy aircraft and they shoot it down.

Images from:

Exequiel Martínez

www.AviationArt.com.ar

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Suggest you check your facts before postinng an aggresive entry.

A lot of that seems to come from the new guys does it not...

Oh and nice pics there CB.

 

[Glider]

CB thanks for your description of the attack on the 1st May. Its always interesting to see a report from the other sides view.
I have looked at the records that I have and they are very similar. There is no doubt its the same attack as everything is the same such as the pilots involved, the ships and the aircraft.

The differences are small.
All three attacking bomber Daggers attacked the the three frigates/destroyers and all three caused damage with their 30mm guns but all the bombs missed. The damage was minor with the Arrow suffering most with 8 hits to her funnel and engine air intake, one man being wounded by shrapnel. The Alacrity was shaken by a near miss and took on some water from a leak which was sealed by the damage control team. The area was later pumped clear and a patch applied.

Cuervas aircraft didn't straff the Hermes in the channel, the Hermes was kept far from the shore to the east of the Falklands for the entire battle. Such was the distance from shore, the Admiral on board became know widely within the fleet as 'Windy' Woodward, a play on his name Sandy Woodward. Both carriers were kept out of harms way as it was recognised that had one been hit the conflict was over.

When Cuervas approached the airfield there is no mention of a missile being fired by his aircraft by design or not. A Falklander on the ground saw the incident and described that he saw a plane heading towards them and the Argentine forces opening up with eveything they had. He saw three hits on the aircraft which then crashed with the Argentine soldiers cheering like mad.

 

[CharlesBronson]

It could be some diferences but minimal, my sources are all argentines and I tend to rely only on those ( no ofense) because some information wich is available on british websites is just a copy of and old info about 1985-86 wich have many mistakes.

For example a source claimed that the HMS Ardent was sunk by 14 rocket of 68 mm and a bomb of 230 kg launched by an MB-339.

Well the Mb-339 339 have 8 Zuni rocket of 127 mm and no bombs ( the technician tough that the primitive launching system in that italian aircraft would made any attack with bombs suicidal) but the most important, that ship were sunk by A-4Q with snakeyes bombs ( It was hit several times before that final attack)

Aniway I will continue with this topic tonight, no time right now.

 

[Glider]

No offence taken. I tend to rely on researched books and cross references. Often for me the deciding factor is the level of detail contained and applying logic.

My main source is Air War South Atlantic which was written with the full co operation of both the British and Argentine forces including visits to the bases of both sides and interviews with the people who particiated in the conflict. If you don't have a copy I recommend it.

Poor old Ardent, I have her hit by almost everything apart from a MB399.
The first plane to hit her was a Dagger that hit her with a 1000lb bomb. This hit her by the Hanger destroying her helicopter (suprise) and the Seacat AA missile as well as blocking the ammunition run for the 4.5in.
Secondly she was attacked by 3 airforce Skyhawks which hit her in the stern with two more bombs thought to be 500lb
Lastly she was attacked by three more Naval Skyhawks, when she was hit by two Snakeye bombs, one at least again hit the stern. Not suprisingly this was the final blow and she had to be abandoned.

On the same day an MB339 did launch a solo attack on HMS Argonaut using 5in rockets. Could that be the cause for confusion. He was Lt Crippa and was awarded the Argentine Medal for Heroisam and Bravery in Combat for the attack, which frankly I think he deserved. The only damage was superficial and no one was hurt, but his bravery is unquestioned.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Indeed but the Crippa mission was the first of the day, he was on some armed recce flight and have no idea that the Royal Navy was on the San Carlos strait.

Off course with that information available began the large scale attack of the Armada and Air Force aircraft.

 

[CharlesBronson]

The Argentine Navy A-4Qs vs the HMS Ardent, 21th May 1982:

In the morning Douglas A-4Q from the 2th escuadrilla Aeronaval de Ataque ( 2 squadron of naval attack.) flown by LT Benito Rótolo (3-a-306, first), Carlos Lecour (3-A-305, second) and Roberto Sylvester (3-A-301, thirst) launch his bombs over the HMS Ardent. One of the bomb launched by Carlos Lecour impact in the ship fuel depot starting a big fire. The british response was hard but the aircraft return to the continent without damage.

The second was comprised by the pilots J.C Arca, the capt corvette A. Philippi ad the leutenant Marquez.

Jose Cesar Arca remembers:

"Teorically we should keep a distance of 19 seconds between the aircraft to avoid any posible fragment from the leading aircraft proyectiles , however in the last Km to the target the Surface to Air missiles menace and the tracers from the warships cannons desorganizated the formation and I ended up just 1 seconds behind Philippi, I saw the 4 bombs separating from his plane the metal fins opened correctly ( Snakeyes 227 kg) one hit the stern of the ship and caused a hell of explosion and smoke, I penetrate this and dropped my bombs , latter I hear the voice of Marquez- Very good sir, one in the stern ¡¡

We evade the ship turning sharply to the left , I think that no more than 20 seconds passed when I hear the voice of Marquez again- Sea Harries 3 o Clock"

Few seconds later Marquez aircraft took a full burst of 30 mm Aden cannon and explode giving no chance to the pilot. Phillippi try to evade the british Fighter but his aircraft is also hit and he had to eject , minutes later landed unhurt in the coast and retuned to the argentines lines walking.


J.C Arca (rigth) A Philippi., picture taken in 1986

Arca was probably fliying the hardest Mcdonell Doglas in existence and is attacked twice taking hits in both wings and the fuselage. With a serious damage a without hidraulics Arca tough is done.
However the Sea Harries disingage ( probably due of lack of fuel) an the argentine try to make a landing in the Pt Argentino airstrip.

The response from ground Control:

"I can see the sky trough the holes in your aircraft, none of the undercarriage wheels in the the right position, you better go to the bay and eject"

The pilot did so but the A-4 did not go down and remain circling around putting in danger some houses and pilot alike.

"Is like the A-4 was mad because I had to leave it"

Finally the Oerlikon batteries open fire and finished the career of that stuborn aircraft. Arca was rescued from the sea by an Army helicopter belonging to the 601th batallion.

Mortally wounded the HMS Ardent Ardent stopped in the shallow waters of Grantham Sound, the fires in her stern out of control. The Rothersay-class Yarmouth then came alongside to take off survivors. Ardent continued to burn throughout the night, accompanied by the occasional explosion, until she sank the following morning, with only her foremast remaining above the water. The last man to leave was her Commander, Cdr. Alan West, who was subsequently awarded the Distinguished Service Cross, and served as First Sea Lord from 2002-2006.

 

[Matt308]

Excellent CB. Great posts.

 

[Glider]

The Daggers that made the first attack on the Ardent came from Grupo 6 led by Captain Gonzalez. Originally there were four but one, Lt Luna was hit by a Harrier on the way in leaving three. The other two pilots who took part in the attack were, Captain Robles and Lt Bernhardt.

The first Skyhawk attack my sources say came from Grupo 5 but I am more than willing to admit that your info is so detailed that this is likely to be an error, in particular as the details of the attack are similar. This is why I like these discussions, its helps sort the wheat from the chaff

The second attack matches the details that I have. There is one interesting point. Arca mentions the missile threat, Philipi in the interview in the book I have, mentions the smoke from the Seacat missile and thinking that he was lucky they didn't have Seawolf. The smoke was from an unguided chaff launcher fired in the of distrating the attackers, the Seawolf being destroyed in the Dagger attack.

Another interesting point is the damage done to Arca's plane. He was fired at by Clive Morell because his Sidewinder failed to lock on. Clive didn't see any hits with the 30mm, went back to the Sidewinder which now locked on and fired of its own accord. Initially it went as expected towards the Skyhawk but then in Morells words 'it got to within a length or two behind him then stopped guiding and fell into the sea'.
Its interesting that Morell having done a serious amount of damage to the Skyhawk had no idea that he had even hit it. I also wonder if Arca knows how close he came to being being hit by the Sidewinder, which would have finished him for sure.

 

[Glider]

PS when I say second attack I mean the second Skyhawk attack. Apologies for any confusion

 

[CharlesBronson]

Excellent CB. Great posts.

Thanks very much , it took some time to get the translation and the proper pictures.

The Daggers that made the first attack on the Ardent came from Grupo 6 led by Captain Gonzalez. Originally there were four but one, Lt Luna was hit by a Harrier on the way in leaving three. The other two pilots who took part in the attack were, Captain Robles and Lt Bernhardt.

Thanks for the aditional info, in my opinion the Mirages V were the less sucessful aircraft of the war achieving little and taking heavy heavy losses in turn.

The first Skyhawk attack my sources say came from Grupo 5 but I am more than willing to admit that your info is so detailed that this is likely to be an error, in particular as the details of the attack are similar. This is why I like these discussions, its helps sort the wheat from the chaff

It does, I just describe the Navy attacks in disregard of the Air force.

 

[Glider]

Not sure how this will come out as I have scanned it from a poor copy but it might be worth it.

It shows that the Miarages may have achieved little but it wasn't through lack of effort. Most people believe that it was a lack of training in attacking ships.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Nice picture, in here other MV Dagger coming trough the RFA ..Bedivere ..Tristam ? not sure.

And the effort was a lot, just imagine that they have not the benefits of flight refueling as the S.Etendar or A-4 and they have to carry huge fuel tanks all the mission and back.

 

[Glider]

In one of my earlier postings I mentioned that the Hermes was kept so far East the Admiral achieved the nickname Windy Woodward. There was a cartoon in the series I mentioned earlier, which sums up the view of the rest of the Navy and the Marines who would have liked better support.

Its a quirk of our sense of Humour that we also have a pop at each other

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Nice pics and good info there.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Nice pics and good info there

Thanks.

In one of my earlier postings I mentioned that the Hermes was kept so far East the Admiral achieved the nickname Windy Woodward.

I had understand that the carries were moved so far but after the beggining of the argentine air attacks.

Few seconds later Marquez aircraft took a full burst of 30 mm Aden cannon and explode giving no chance to the pilot. Phillippi try to evade the british Fighter but his aircraft is also hit and he had to eject , minutes later landed unhurt in the coast and retuned to the argentines lines walking

Here I found a pic of the pilots of the 2th Attack Squadron, Marquez (KIA 21-5-1982) is signaled with the arrow.

And some aditional pics of the Mirages Vs. Both carried two tanks of 1700 liters and one of 1300 liters giving a clear indication of the large mission range.

C-402 with two Mk-82 bombs.

C-430 shoot down over the islands 24-5-1982.

Source:

ZONAMILITAR

 

[Glider]

The carriers were never brought in close to the Islands. In fact the calls for the carriers to be brought in increases as the attacks came underway. When the Cruise Liner Canberra was brought into San Carlos, the calls for cover increased as she was a big vulnerable ship and her loss would have had a huge impact, but Admiral Woodward refused to bring the carriers in.

It was recognised that bringing carriers in would have reduced their room to manouver and given the attacking bombers the opertunity to use to islands to mask their approach. This use of land cover was a major problem for the defenders.

There was serious consideration given to placing the carriers in the open sea with a strong escort between the Islands and the mainland to intercept the bombers before they reached the islands. This would have increased the chances of interception, allowed the ships the freedom they needed and allowed the missiles, in particular the Sea Dart with its long range full reign. However the risks were significant (in particular from Exocet) and as mentioned before, had one carrier been hit, then the campaign was lost.