The Fw 190A-9 of Siegfried Baer, 5.Staffel, II./JG301, in Detail....

Wayne Little said:

supposedly there are some examples, very rare,

Click to expand...

Matt, Erich and Wurger are correct, when I say supposedly, this is because there IS written reference in various books and sites that some DID have the Ta tail, however WE collectively haven't seen photographic evidence yet! Maybe there is, maybe there isn't......
In one Kagero publication it states next to one photo that this crashed A-9 may have the Ta tail, well guess what you can't see the tail!.....?

Matt if you wish to have a go at one, please do, it would make a great "what if" subject to see!

The RP? in the account of the mission is Rally Point west of Misburg

I also noted that in the recount of November 26 battle from LW perspective, Willi R was quoted as talking about 'great tactical advantage as well as great numerical advantage' for the escorts..

Willi also claimed that 11 Mustangs went down in this air battle. I'll have to look at 339th but the 355th/2SF lost zero in this fight.. but one did go down in the North Sea and two had a mid air collision near the Dutch border

Short story -it wasn't true. There were parts of three squadrons of the 355th plus a section of 2SF involved from the 355th - resulting in 26 Awards to 16 pilots. In all the frenzy only 16 pilots did all the shooting. Further all the engagements started with the US fighters climbing to the attackers altitude before they reached the bombers.

This narrative covers the battle from NE of the target area over Misburg to Celle area and turn back for target run. As Erich has noted there was not only JG 301 but also JG6 and JG1 attacking. Only JG 301 penetrated the escorts but hurt the 491st severely in the process.

In addition to the 355th/2SF, the 361st also engaged east of Celle with a section just before the 389th BG turned S for the IP, to also attack JG1 and JG6. Later the 339th engaged JG 301 after the target area was left.

Misburg/Hannover area belonged to 355 and JG301.

With help from Erich, here is the Other side of this equation describing the initial engagements inbound, through the IP and to the RP for that mission.

The 'overwhelming force' Willi talked about was the 355th FG in this narrative plus two flights of the 339th FG - that engaged the three Gruppes of JG 301 plus JG1 and JG6..

Then the rest of the 339th hit the JG301 fighters out in front of the Rally point and hurt them all the way to Dummer Lake.. This was a two FG force of Mustangs ~ 90+ in this area for this entire fight starting ene of Hannover/Misberg, running south, then sw through the target then west for home.

November 26

F.O.529-B. Major Sluga led the 355th on a Ramrod to Hanover from 1005 to 1445. Forty Mustangs picked up the B-24s at 1120 east of Ijmuiden and escorted them to the target.

Preceeding the 2nd BD B-24's into Hannover/Misburg targets were 1st BD B-17s escorted by 339th FG

The trailing three wings of B-24s that were covered by the 355th were not only scattered all along the inbound route but also flying very poor formation. The 389th BG was leading, 445th BG in the middle, and the 491st BG in trail. The track around the target was approximately due east passing north of Hannover, then north of Misburg then northeast of Misburg near Celle, then the 14th CW swung south, then south-southwest to track over Misburg.

As the three B-24 bomb groups were strung across 40 miles, it was nearly impossible for the 355thFG to provide close cover.

To the northeast, three Gruppe's of newly equipped Fw 190A8's and A9s of JG301 steamed into the target area.

Earlier, to try to attack the B-17 force were Focke Wulf's from JG1 and Me 109K's from JG6 from the coming in from the northeast in the Ulzen area. They were engaged first by the 339th FG in a huge air battle

Between 1200 and 1210, two flights of the 357FS climbed to meet a large gaggle of JG1 Fw 190s covered by two squadrons of JG6 Me 109Ks that had escaped the 339th.

Haviland's Yellow flight quickly shot down six with Haviland and Max and Moroney scorring two apiece and Lyons getting one. This attack scattered the first Gruppe of the JG1 Fw 190s and escorting Me 109s.

Between 1235 and 1243 the first wave of 75+ single engine German fighters from III./JG301 attacked the escorted B-24s east of Misberg.

Another Staffel of Me 109's from JG6 as well a Staffel each of Fw 190A9s from I./JG301 and II./301 were assigned Mustang 'protection duty'.

The initial attackers from this second threat were also intercepted before they were able to attack the B-24s as the 354th Squadron broke to the north and intercepted this wave just about the time the 389th BG was over the target.

These Fw 190s and escorting Me 109s from the first two waves were broken up in the early air battles and were prevented from hitting the bombers. These two large gaggles were engaged and pursued all the way to the deck with claims of 17 destroyed for no losses.

While the rat race with the 354FS and 357FS was in full progress, parts of the second and third waves of Fw 190s from III./JG301 plus high cover Fw 190A9s continued to pursue the bombers.

Unfortunately, blunting the attacks from the northeast left a gap in the escort for the 445th and 491st BG. As the 389th was pulling away from the target, it was covered by the 358FS, with a gap all the way to the trail of the 491st. Just behind the last squadron of B-24's were 8 ships of the 2SF checking out bomb results

Into that vaccum, as the 445th reached the target with 491st in trail, the first waves of I. II./JG301 Fw 190A-9s attacked from the rear in a 'company front' series of waves and took out 16 B-24s of the 491st, then continued flying along the formation track past the 445th, wheeled and came back in from 11 o'clock to take out five more B-24s.

The 358FS, too far in front to help initially peeled back along the bomber track as the 2nd SF attacked the third wave of Fw 190s attacking the 491st from the rear. The 358 engaged shortly afterwards and broke up the rest of the attack.

The section of the 2nd SF undoubtedly saved many more 491st B-24's when they attacked that wave of German fighters with just eight Mustangs, destroying five 190s plus two probables and two damaged. The 358FS followed the 2nd SF bounce and destroyed four more with no losses to raise the group claims to 22 destroyed, plus the five downed by 2nd SF with no losses in the battle.

As the bomber stream reached Munsdorf on the way home, the 339th engaged and fought all the way to Dummer Lake, claiming 27 destroyed in their fight below and in front of the bomber stream while the 354FS and 357FS of the 355th struggled to regain altitude and continue the escort.

II./JG301 StaffelKaptain Oblt Alfred Vollert was KIA in this fight.

This was the war's blackest day for JG301 with over 40 pilots KIA or wounded in a small area alone. Combined with the heavy losses of JG301 due to the 352nd on 21 November, it was reduced to a point of ineffectiveness for several months..

High scorers for the 355th included Frank Masters with three, McLear, Priest, Hauver, Max, Moroney and Haviland scored two apiece while Mellen, Duffy, Molnar, Barab, Lyons and Beckman each nailed singles. Bill Lyons hit a 109 on Haviland's tail with a near 90 degree deflection shot.

Priest's and Haviland's doubles raised their air victory totals to the ace level of five and six respectively, and made them the group's fourteenth and fifteenth air aces.

Lieutenant Whalen of the Second Scout Force got three Fw 190s while Lieutenant Ceglarski and Captain Whitlow each shot down one. Whalen's triple raised his score to four and made him the top scorer for the 2nd SF. Legend has it that Whalen calmly lit up a cigarette while pursuing his last victim over Hannover and earned the nickname "Gooney".

Escort was broken at 1310 over Dummer Lake and the group headed out over the North Sea. While over the German/Holland border, Kelley collided with Barab, and both aircraft spun out. No chutes were seen and neither turned up after the war.

Captain Stauder of the 2nd SF was last seen in an inverted dive over the Channel, at about 3000 feet, on the way home and nobody saw him again. He was not hit during the fight and the loss was believed due to either disorientation or oxygen failure.

The 364th FG also had a very big day in the Bielefed and Osnabruck area destroying 24 more.

The 356th FG flew its first mission in Mustangs.

Final score 26-3-8 with three losses (none air to air)

This would be a different accounting of the same action..

Drgondog, I think that the posts belong to another thread, don't they?

Wurger said:

Drgondog, I think that the posts belong to another thread, don't they?

Click to expand...

Actually, yes i do..

If you want to ask an admin to delete it be my guest

lesofprimus said:

Heres the Misburg Combat Writeup by Erich and Niel Page.....

Focke Wulf 190 JG 301 26 November 1944

Click to expand...

Dan - this is a good article. Erich and I have collaborated to try to weave elements of the 361st and 339th in conjunction with 355th/2SF furball, just like we did for the April 24 article about Munich.

I'm almost finished with detail OOB for 8th on this deal and posted it above.

The only reason I am commenting on the article is that Willi R - as much as respect him is always talking about overwhelming numerical superiority of the US fighter force - and this is another case where it wasn't true. The LW had the numbers, broke through the escorts and hammered the 24s, and paid a heavy price in return.

Bill I think Willi may have talked of the whole November 26, 1944 mission not just his role and his JG 301 at once. looking at the numbers overall for the Luftwaffe, they came up and simply got slaughtered. of course you and I have filled gaps in where Neil and I left off and am still working on what happened from the JG 301 closer first hand than Willi has done in his first person book. Obviously there will always be many unanswered questions.

E ~

Erich said:

Bill I think Willi may have talked of the whole November 26, 1944 mission not just his role and his JG 301 at once. looking at the numbers overall for the Luftwaffe, they came up and simply got slaughtered. of course you and I have filled gaps in where Neil and I left off and am still working on what happened from the JG 301 closer first hand than Willi has done in his first person book. Obviously there will always be many unanswered questions.

E ~

Click to expand...

That sounds right.

On one hand, the LW was always confronted with the 'more of them than us' just by simply looking at the number of bombers they could choose to attack on any one day. There were always more B-17s and B-24s in the air over Germany from late 1943 to the end of the war than the LW had s/e fighters In Their Entire Inventory. In THIS context Willi is right about 'numbers'. End of discussion here.

But invariably - at the beginning of any single attack, at the opening of the clash, there invariably were more single engine German fighters than the escorts because the German doctrine was not to split up 200-300 day fighters into 50 gaggles of 6 - preferring to put up 4 Gaggles of 75, etc and strike at a gap in coverage, and do it with local numerical and tactical advantage.

I know I am a preacher talking to the converted when you and I talk about these specific missions... and tis is a discussion about models not carnage

well lets say the thread although modeling is about my cousins a/c Bill and he fought and died in the attack thread you and I are mentioning. true a saturation of one bomb group to destroy and de-moralize the associated groups was clear cut wishful thinking, but that was the idea from a staffel of 10 to 15 a/c lined up and then breaking off into 3's with a dagger like attack with element leader in front followed by the remaining two. bu through all accts so far from your 355th/2nd SF and from my correspondance with the 339th fg rep, JG 301 was caught in most cases flying in-line abreast in large numbers far from the bombers and were attacked and jumped while trying to form up a Sturm style attack befitting a typical rear assault

Erich said:

well lets say the thread although modeling is about my cousins a/c Bill and he fought and died in the attack thread you and I are mentioning. true a saturation of one bomb group to destroy and de-moralize the associated groups was clear cut wishful thinking, but that was the idea from a staffel of 10 to 15 a/c lined up and then breaking off into 3's with a dagger like attack with element leader in front followed by the remaining two. bu through all accts so far from your 355th/2nd SF and from my correspondance with the 339th fg rep, JG 301 was caught in most cases flying in-line abreast in large numbers far from the bombers and were attacked and jumped while trying to form up a Sturm style attack befitting a typical rear assault

Click to expand...

We can take it over someplace else if you want.

The battle so far, from our exchanged sources and references had two major forces on the Luftwaffe side, namely JG301 plus the combination of JG1 Fws with JG6 109Ks flying top cover.

Both originated and formed up east and northeast of the target and flew toward Celle, probably not yet knowing where the bombers were heading.

The 355th was specifically assigned to escort the trail end of the Task Force and the 2SF was first out in front scouting the weather, then hanging east of the route while the B-24s flew north of Hannover and Misburg before turning S and then SSw at the IP for the bomb run.

In the above block of time which is roughly 1200-1220, the B-24 route looks like a horizontal "J" and the German fighters are sighted in the Celle area at nearly the same time by the two flights of the 361st FG, two flights of 357thFS and most of the 354FS.

As near as I can tell neither the 339th FG, nor the last squadron (leading 358) of the 355th or the section of 2SF had yet made contact.

I Think the 339th was ahead of the bomber route and maybe on an Area Patrol between Hannover and Dummer Lake but I do NOT know this latter role for the 339th - just that none of the Encounter Reports I have of the mission are east or at the target - just west all the way to Dummer Lake.

Based on the 357 and 354FS claims of both 109s and 190s I know that JG 6 was engaged and that of course leads to probably JG1 as the initial clash in the Celle area, followed by the 361st claims east of Misburg. The Misburg area clashes were for sure also 354FS and elements of the 361st FG. You probably have a better feel for the JG301/JG1 mix here.

Then all hell broke loose for the 491st when the bulk of JG301 did their company front sweep through the 491st and on to parallel then sweep past the 445th then back to the 445th BG on a head on attack.

This is where the SF jumped in to intercept the last waves of JG301 coming into the 491st again, and the 358FS cought elements of the returning JG301 fw's

I'm thinking that both JG301 and JG1 Fws (that weren't going to the deck) reformed into 3-5, 6-10 ship units and looked for places to initiate more attacks on the B-24s and that's where the 339th came into the picture big time.

The breakout of awards for the LW (from Tony's stuff) is about 10 B-24s awarded to JG1 and JG6 - most between 12:24 and 12:40.

JG301 was awarded 70+ (including B-17s in this same time at Hannover - no B-17s there so had to be actually B-24 that was claimed and awarded)

JG301 and JG1 and JG6 were awarded 11 P-51s in the Hannover area. I'll check tonight to see what the actual losses were for 339th and 361st in the air battel but I think the total for both combined was three and zero for 2SF and 355th.

So - the fight starts at 1210 ne of Celle.. builds up to German attacks at 12:24 east of Hannover (probably at Misburg since the 491st was dropping when hit by JG301 and these were the first fifteen (and only for 491st).

As JG1 claims were in the 12:24-12:40 timeframe and the JG301 was dominantly attacking at 12:38 through 12:45 I am inclined that most or all of the JG1 claims were wildly 'optimistic' as we do know that 301 did the damage and hit first.. Only if JG1 Fws mingled with JG301 could any of JG1 claims be valid.

More later as I try to reconstruct the 339th

So, I have no clue what JG1 and JG6 thought they were shooting down at 12:24 to 12:38 because it wasn't the 491st!

Personally I do not think JG 1 or JG 6 had any kills over B-24's but were dealing with leading boxes of B-17's. It is already proven that the 491st and 445th was hit by the JG 301 Fw's and the leading B-24 group 381st ? received no downed Libs.

This is interesting reading guys..thanks.....still building slowly Erich!

Erich said:

Personally I do not think JG 1 or JG 6 had any kills over B-24's but were dealing with leading boxes of B-17's. It is already proven that the 491st and 445th was hit by the JG 301 Fw's and the leading B-24 group 381st ? received no downed Libs.

Click to expand...

Erich - we are dealing with eternal problem of gaps in surviving LW records.

I tend to agree with you particularly since both the claims by JG301 survivors and the B-24 survivors are very focused on the actions as described by JG301.

The 389th lost one also but according to Bit and Pieces - due to flak. The same reference has 16 491st B-24s going down in that company front attack plus another one abandoned over Belgium, presuambly due to battle damage - but don't know flak or fighters. All crew safe within Allied lines.

Tony Wood's lists are the only 'global' referencable resource I have found so I tend to stick with it. To the list where the awards totaled over 60 B-24's only 16 went down over all targets attacked and all of those were in Hannover 'region'.

Like you I not only doubt that they were part of the attack in that area but not even sure where they might have engaged the B-17s..The Fort Task Force that also bombed Misburg preceeded the B-24s so were through Misburg and heading home before the 361st and 355th elements engaged JG1/JG6 east of Celle and Ulzen

I did note that the 361st had the bulk of their fighting from Steinhuder Lake through Ulzen and Wittingen area - with the last S/Hanover (one Fw 190). Based on your rich details for all elements of JG301 I am now almost certain that the 361st was Sweeping in front of the lead elements of the B-17 force of 240+ attcking Misburg.

The First (B-17) and Second (B-24) Task Force's eastern most strikes were Hannover/Misburg with a huge strike of Second and Third BD hitting Bielefeld 'region'.. way back to the wsw of Hannover

So the 361st was out in front of both the 1st and 2nd going to Misburg and started shooting from Celle to Ulzen and back to Hannover...The 361st was awarded 20 Fw 190s and 4 Me 109s with most occurring in the Celle-Ulzen-Wittingen axis -

I need to do more digging but it seems much clearer that the 361st main effort was against JG1 and JG6 and probably hit them before the 355th elements did ENE of Hannover.

Virtually all of the German Fighters downed from Gardelegen on a line through Misburg and SW Hannover were 355th and 2SF clashes.. with combined 361st and 355th FG around Celle/Gifhorn. That accounted for 26, mostly Fw 190s and some 109s.

The 339th FG was likely escorting trail boxes of the Hannover/Misburg B-17foces past the Dummer Lake area on the way home, and came running when the 491st and 445th called for help. Most of its 27 awards were Fw 190s so I expect this was a high percentage of JG301 that the 355th didn't get in Hannover/Misburg area

The 364th FG was in the Osnabruck - Dummer Lake axis for its 26 awards - mostly 109s so it had nothing to do with either JG1 or JG 301. It was covering the B-24/B-17 Task Forces hitting Bielefeld and Osnabruck targets. Probably sweeping in front of 3rd Task Force B-17s.

Summary - whether by direct Escort or Sweep to the 300+ B-17s attacking both Misburg and Hannover, the three Fighter Groups in that area (355th/2SF plus 361st and 339th) accounted for 83+ of the 120 German fighters downed by 8th FC that day and I would guess most were from JG301/JG1 and JG6.

The 8th AF lost 5 total Fighters air to air, 55th (-1), 78th (-1), 339th (-2) and the 364th (-1), plus 7 to flak and mechanical failures...

To get that last bit straight in my head, ur saying the LW lost 83+ fighters out of 120 that attacked, and that the 8th AF lost 5?????????

Were all those losses to fighter opposistion Bill, or is it combined??? U kinda lost me...

lesofprimus said:

To get that last bit straight in my head, ur saying the LW lost 83+ fighters out of 120 that attacked, and that the 8th AF lost 5?????????

Were all those losses to fighter opposistion Bill, or is it combined??? U kinda lost me...

Click to expand...

Dan - summary
The 8th AF FC awarded 120 air scores on November 26. They lost 5 in air combat - one of which crashed after the one he chased to the ground.

The 83+ number referred to total number of awards to three Fighter groups plus the 8 2SF Mustangs (an extension of 355) in the battles 40 miles west of Hannover to 40 miles east of Hannover between 1210 and 1300. These are the units that took on all of JG301, a large part of JG1 plus at least one Gruppe of JG6.

My writing style needs polishing but the net of the discussion in my book is that approximately 130 Mustangs were engaged in battle with 200 plus Fw 190s and Me 109s trying to defend Misburg.

This is why I react now to much of the history recounted by post war German Fighter pilots regarding 'the overwhelming numerical superiority' of US escorts. The sky is one huge ocean and these battles were microcosms of two big organizations fought in a relatively small space-time - they (both sides) deserve all the credit for the courage required to engage.. it doesn't need to be embellished regarding the 'odds'

I wish the German records were intact enough to really get the OOB and reasonable loss/damage results. It is historians like Prien (and Erich) that dig and dig on what is available to render useful info.. Erich has been a huge help to my own research and Leo Etgen is way up there in helping me develop the 355FG Encounter Log to pinpoint units.

At any rate I hope I cleared up what I meant versus what I wrote..

PS - I don't have time to build the stash I have of Hasegawa 1/32. If you want my Fw190d and Me 109G-10 send me your address via PM. I'm in the middle of building a highly modified Top-Flite 1/7 scale 51B of my father's first bird for the Fighter Aces Museum and it is consuming me. Learning to craft and pull a malcom hood is a bitch!

Drgondog, Heinz got the 'I'll trade U 4 that' thread up and running again. If there's anything you want to sell or swap, drop a post on the thread!

A4K said:

Drgondog, Heinz got the 'I'll trade U 4 that' thread up and running again. If there's anything you want to sell or swap, drop a post on the thread!

Click to expand...

THx A4K.. I didn't have too many 'spares' anyway but appreciate the heads up.

Nice build!
Great grave markers, nice too see the men of those days are not forgotten in Germany either.

Wayne Little said:

Matt, Erich and Wurger are correct, when I say supposedly, this is because there IS written reference in various books and sites that some DID have the Ta tail, however WE collectively haven't seen photographic evidence yet! Maybe there is, maybe there isn't......
In one Kagero publication it states next to one photo that this crashed A-9 may have the Ta tail, well guess what you can't see the tail!.....?

Matt if you wish to have a go at one, please do, it would make a great "what if" subject to see!

Click to expand...

Found one with the Ta152 tail!!! stay tuned will post a pic tomorrow when I can get at the other computer and scanner.

Eric, it was right under our noses all the time!

Waiting for the pic.