The Greatest Fighter Jet of All Time.

The Sabre were not one of the best aircraft and not a great fighter aircraft, but it's pilots used it excellently and had some great success against the MIGs in Korea.

I would not vote for a aircraft only because it looks cool, rather vote then in one where it says which jet aircraft looked the coollest.

Henk

Henk said:

The Sabre were not one of the best aircraft and not a great fighter aircraft, but it's pilots used it excellently and had some great success against the MIGs in Korea.

Henk

Click to expand...

I don't think you will get a lot of people to agree with you on this. The F-86 and Mig 15 were outstanding fighters. These two were in a class by themselves for that era.

And, the F-86 is one of the great looking aircrafts.

Yes, but it did lack compared to the MIG 15, but like I said it's pilots made it what it is.

Henk

Nice siggy there, I love the P-51s over Neuschwanstein Castle. It really is a beautiful castle to visit.



Thanks. I haven't been there, but I am a fan of medieval weapons and stuff as well.

Yeah, I suppose the Sabre wasn't the greatest, but maybe I am a bit biased! But in it's day it wasn't too bad.

True, I also like your siggy, that is really nicely done.

Henk

I dont, the pic is too large and the quality sucks....

Henk the Sabre was a marvelous aircraft actually. The Mig-15 was only better at first and later on at worst they were equals. The Sabre flew well and it was a great design for its time. So was the Mig-15 but the Mig-15 was not way better than the Sabre.

Oh yes it was a lovely aircraft and it did have its strong points, but like you said it later on could get the MIG 15, but if you know that the MIG 15 were not a great fighter aircraft if you take that the MIG 15 were really a bomber destroyer/interceptor while the Sabre was a fighter. SA also had some, we had quite a lot of US aircraft.

Anyway I just tried to say that the Sabre did have its problems and were not so great as many people thought, but it did kick a*s later in its career.

Henk

The F86D sort of looks like a beagle.

Henk said:

but if you know that the MIG 15 were not a great fighter aircraft if you take that the MIG 15 were really a bomber destroyer/interceptor while the Sabre was a fighter.

Click to expand...

They actually had the same abitlities and the Sabre in the end could outperform the Mig-15 not because of its pilots but because of its superior qualities.

Performance wise but the Sabre guns were weaker than the guns of the MIG 15. What I meant with the pilots is that they learned the tactics of the enemy and later started to counter the MIG 15 tactics and also learned their own tactics to deal with the MIG 15.

Henk

And what does that actually have to do with the aircraft themselves?

That made them also great aircraft in the sense that the tactics used brought out the real potential out of the aircraft and only the pilot knows what the aircraft can do and not do not the guy on the ground.

Now for instance I can only work on what the pilot told me how a aircraft handled and what it could do or I would not know how it works.

You see like I have said in the past, The pilot makes the aircraft and the tactics they use to fight the enemy makes the airforce and the aircraft great, but if a pilot does not have great training they would also not be able think of those tactics.

So you see how I see it mate.

Henk

Henk said:

Performance wise but the Sabre guns were weaker than the guns of the MIG 15. What I meant with the pilots is that they learned the tactics of the enemy and later started to counter the MIG 15 tactics and also learned their own tactics to deal with the MIG 15.

Henk

Click to expand...

The individual rounds were weaker but the actual configuration was more effective in combat where pilots often only had opponents in their gunsights for a second or two. The Mig-15 had heavy cannon armament, but they were slower firing and the green pilots of North Korea probably would have done better with a larger numbers of rapid firing weapons.

Henk said:

That made them also great aircraft in the sense that the tactics used brought out the real potential out of the aircraft and only the pilot knows what the aircraft can do and not do not the guy on the ground.

Now for instance I can only work on what the pilot told me how a aircraft handled and what it could do or I would not know how it works.

You see like I have said in the past, The pilot makes the aircraft and the tactics they use to fight the enemy makes the airforce and the aircraft great, but if a pilot does not have great training they would also not be able think of those tactics.

So you see how I see it mate.

Henk

Click to expand...

No I dont really. The Pilot has a say so in the aircraft but no the pilot does not make the aircraft. 2 Aircraft that are equal in that case yes. The better pilot has the advantage and will get the most out of his plane, but in the case of the Mig-15 and the Sabre that is not case.

I will use rotary wing terms because I am a rotary wing guy. That is like me saying that a pilot with 5000 hours of flight time and UH-1 Huey is going to outfly a pilot with 100 hours of flight time in a UH-60 Blackhawk. Not going to happen.

Na, you can not understand what I am saying lets just drop it

Henk

No I fully understand what you are saying.

Here's some info on the MiG-15 vs. F-86 during the Korean War.

ACIG which has always been a pretty reliable data base has made it's living on attempting to put together accurate information regarding air-to-air victories in the post WW2 years. Here's some numbers I got from Soviet pilots vs. USAF, Chinese vs. USAF and in the end the total USAF MiG-15 kill Talley (if you follow ACIG's numbers)

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/index.shtml

From Nov 1, 1950 through August 29, 1951 the Soviet pilots operating over North Korea claimed 141 US aircraft destroyed of which 44 were F-86s. The USAF claimed 112 of which 44 were MiG-15s! How many of these were flown by Soviet pilots, we will never know. From Sept 1, 1951 through December 31, 1951 the Soviets claimed another 59 F-86s while the USAF claimed another 134 Mig-15s, this is also a period where the F-86E was coming on scene. After that that record of Soviet pilots fall off, probably because most of the Soviets were rotated home as it seem the war was going to drag on.

From January 1, 1952 through May 31 1952 the USAF claimed another 163 and then from June 1952 through December 1952 another 210. During the same period the Chinese claimed 19 F-86s.

Now in the ACIG lists, there are confirmed kills noted by each side, probables and damaged aircraft are not included. In a total tally of these numbers the US bested the MiG-15 1.6 to 1 (178 to 103) during the period Soviet pilots were operating with the PNKAF. In the latter time (Sept 1, 1951 through December 31, 1951 the USAF had a kill ratio of better than 2 to 1, again we will never know how many of the USAF victories were Soviet. Bottom line, as they were part of an opposing air arm, they, along with their North Korean comrades seemed to be getting their @sses kicked.

From Jan 1952, through May 31, 1952 I show an additional 163 MiG-15s claimed by the USAF. From June 1952 to December 1952 the number rises to 210. During this whole time I show USAF F-86 air-to-air combat losses for the F-86 as 122.

Factor all those together and this is what you have - 122 F-86s lost in air to air fighting with 551 MiG-15s destroyed about a 5 to 1 kill ratio. I believe these numbers are pretty accurate as they seem more in tune with admitted communist losses. It has always been said that the USAF greatly inflated its kill numbers, the Soviets who flew in Korea are no different as for example, they claimed 186 F-80s, while it seems only 60 were lost.

So there you have it, you could believe these numbers for further try to split them but I think it still shows that even in the early days of the Korean War, the MiG-15 and their pilots (be they Soviet, Chinese or North Korean) didn't have a dominant grasp over early F-86s and their pilots...

Bounce this data aginst the data from this site....

http://www.acepilots.com/russian/rus_aces.html

Excellent post Joe...

Yes excellent post, thankyou.