A
Anonymous
Guest
cheddar cheese said:Yeah I agree. If it wasnt a Battle, why is it known as the BATTLE of Britain and not the CAMPAIGN of Britain?
Because "Britain" starts with a B and it just sounds good.
The most important battle of WWII
- Thread starter cheddar cheese
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Because "Britain" starts with a B and it just sounds good.
evangilder
"Shooter"
Nonskimmer said:I'll assume that's a good thing.
Yup. 8)
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cheddar cheese
Major General
RG_Lunatic said:cheddar cheese said:Yeah I agree. If it wasnt a Battle, why is it known as the BATTLE of Britain and not the CAMPAIGN of Britain?
Because "Britain" starts with a B and it just sounds good.
But "Battle of the Atlantic" doesnt alliterate
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
just face it, the BoB was a battle...........
trackend
Chief Master Sergeant
Collins dictionary definition of the word Battle:
Fight between large armed forces.
Conflict or struggle.
I think that a battle can be over an extended period indeed very few battles just start and finish . If you regroup does that mean one battle has finished and another is about to begin, even though direct engagement with the opposing force is temporarily broken.
For example the Battle of the Bulge was not two armies facing off in one big free for all but consisted of many engagements (same goes for Kurst, Stalingrad,Monti Cassino etc) all have a defining moment when a conclusive result is obtained this then is the end of the battle, I think the word is used in these contexts to describe a goal rather than one engagement ie domination of the sea lanes, (Battle of the Adlantic) domination of an area of ground (Battle of the Bulge) (Battle of Kursk) or even the domination of the skies over the UK (Battle of Britain).This means of course that most battles in the strictest sense of the word are actually campaigns but lets face it the Campaign of the Bulge just don't sound right does it. And the soldiers,sailors and airmen who didn't see the end of these actions (if they could come back to life) I am sure would have some other names to call them.
Fight between large armed forces.
Conflict or struggle.
I think that a battle can be over an extended period indeed very few battles just start and finish . If you regroup does that mean one battle has finished and another is about to begin, even though direct engagement with the opposing force is temporarily broken.
For example the Battle of the Bulge was not two armies facing off in one big free for all but consisted of many engagements (same goes for Kurst, Stalingrad,Monti Cassino etc) all have a defining moment when a conclusive result is obtained this then is the end of the battle, I think the word is used in these contexts to describe a goal rather than one engagement ie domination of the sea lanes, (Battle of the Adlantic) domination of an area of ground (Battle of the Bulge) (Battle of Kursk) or even the domination of the skies over the UK (Battle of Britain).This means of course that most battles in the strictest sense of the word are actually campaigns but lets face it the Campaign of the Bulge just don't sound right does it. And the soldiers,sailors and airmen who didn't see the end of these actions (if they could come back to life) I am sure would have some other names to call them.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
very good point...........
trackend
Chief Master Sergeant
The most important battle of world war 2.
Their wasn't one each played it's part in the over all run of events and without even some of the lesser know battles perhaps the conclusion of the conflict may have been very different .
Their wasn't one each played it's part in the over all run of events and without even some of the lesser know battles perhaps the conclusion of the conflict may have been very different .
mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
trackend said:
I agree, if the Battle of Arras had gone the British way, maybe France wouldn't have fallen and the Germans wouldn't have invaded Russia
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
I think we not need to restrict "the most important battle of ww2" to ETO, only. Battle of Midway is a turning point in the pacific, but the battle of Leyte would be more important in my views. From the german point of view Stalingrad was the most important battle in ww2 (but that depends more on emotions, everybody here have heard about that. From 200000 POW only 20000 (10%)survived their prisonship in Sibiria (I am fimilar with two of them, they still live). Charkov was (in the german view) a succesful operation after Stalingrad, but it leads to the operations of Kursks (Zitadelle), which can be seen as the biggest clashes between armed forces in history. Finally the russian forces destroyed the main german ground forces during 1944 and all these operations are considered to be more important than Battle of Britain, North Atlantic operations or the battle of Bulge or anything else. -As I told, from the german point of view (can be read in schoolbooks, too.)in general. I will not agree completely. The most important SINGLE OPERATION during ww2 belongs -in my eyes- to spy ops. The story of Dr. Richard Sorge had the biggest imaginabel influence on the curse of war from 1941 on. But that is not Battle under our definition.
mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
Who's Richard Sorge?
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
I still think that if we have to define the single most important Battle it would be Pearl Harbor. It turned the US from, I think it was, 78% Isolationist to 99% "kick their buts". Anything less and it would have been a longer more bitter war giving the Axis time to solidify their gains and produce the wepons it needed to continue the war.
The war winning "Policy" was Lend Lease. The vast majority of the tools and raw materials used to fight the war were shipped into the UK and the various theaters of the war. The UK has exactly 3 major natural resources: 1) People who don't quit. 2) People who think. And 3) Coal. Everything else came in by ship and with limited funds Lend Lease was the only way the UK could stay in the war.
The Russians needed time and material and people to fight not manufacture - LL was criticle allowing them to concentrate of the fighting.
This is my opinion and the facts as I see them. It is in NO WAY ment to detract from the Brittish or their efforts durring the war indeed they were Instramental to winning the war. We always work better toghter!
The war winning "Policy" was Lend Lease. The vast majority of the tools and raw materials used to fight the war were shipped into the UK and the various theaters of the war. The UK has exactly 3 major natural resources: 1) People who don't quit. 2) People who think. And 3) Coal. Everything else came in by ship and with limited funds Lend Lease was the only way the UK could stay in the war.
The Russians needed time and material and people to fight not manufacture - LL was criticle allowing them to concentrate of the fighting.
This is my opinion and the facts as I see them. It is in NO WAY ment to detract from the Brittish or their efforts durring the war indeed they were Instramental to winning the war. We always work better toghter!
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
I agree. The land lease was important for the surviving of the red army and the red army fighting (and binding) most of the german forces in the plains of eastern europe was important for the UK and US. Imagine a Rommel Armeekorps with 3 Armygroups (Heeresgruppen), making him 10-15 times (numerical)as strong as it was! Or a DDay with 5 million german defendes instead of 150000! Back to Sorge: He is nearly unknown to russians (because he was a german), to germans (because he was a traitor) and to US/UK (because he was communist). Let me point out the importance of Sorge, even if it has only baraly to do with the topic: As a german top author for Spiegel and japan expert he was from 1938 to 1943 in Japan, member of the german foreign relation group in Tokyo. He was close to high japanes officials, and some say even a little familar to the emperor (I couldn´t find a reliable source to proof that "familarity"). Japan and Russia had some border clashes during 1938, thus resulting in a military build up of russian forces in far east Sibiria. Later, there was a non agression pact signed between Soviet Union and Japan. The relationship remained difficult. Sorge was informed by german ambassadors and japanese friends of the operation Barbararossa at the time the emperor was informed. He gave all informations to Stalin. Stalin noticed that and did not take it for seriously. A major mistake. You wonder why Japan did not declared war on Soviet Union in 1941? Thanks to Dr. Richard Sorge. He decided not to be passiv. He took all his influence to take part in a political decision. Japan decided not to atack Russia and therefore to atack the US. As soon as Dr. Sorge noticed that, he informed Stalin. Stalin was able (thanks to Dr. Sorge) to relocate some 57 (experienced) far eastern divisions for the devense of Moscow (and the following winter offensive)in 1941. He was able to do that because Sorge told him that Japan WILL NOT atack the far eastern borders. Fighting on both borders, Stalin wouldn´t had a chance to survive, surely. And attacking the US brought the nation with the highest industrial capabilitys into the war. (He did not know about plans of Pearl Harbour because his active part made him suspicious for the germans. Late in 1941 he was prisoned, the Japanese however did not wanted to kill him, but Stalin was not willing to exchange him for another (unimportant) spy. Incredible. German pressure forced them to kill him in 1943).
mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
wow, I didn't know he was so important. Anyway, even if America had come into the war they wouldn't have been able to help out in the ETO if they couldn't get their troops, tanks etc. over to Britain and North Africa
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Without Sorge it would have made a big difference: The US would probably declare war to germany anyway, but it would happen later. And I seriously doubt that the SU could hold Moscow and Leningrad 1941 without additional divisions from the far east. Murmansk and Stalingrad would have fallen into german hands quite easily in 1942. And without possibility( e.g. without Murmansk) to help the red army, all LL wouldn´t take effect. That would have surely prolonged the war for years (Afrika...), causing even more catatstrophic civil losses for the UK and US as well as for Germany and other nations. Richard Sorge is quite a footprint in history, but a remarkable one.
mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
A forgotten footprint who should be rememberd more
A
Anonymous
Guest
delycros,
I doubt very much that Sorge was the primary motivator of the Japanese as you indicate. Remember, in Nov. 1939 the Japanese attacked the Soviets along the Manchurian boarder. They were bitterly defeated, loosing something around 50,000 soldiers while inflicting less than 10,000 losses on the Soviets. Reportedly Hirohito was furious with the Army for having instigated hostilities with the Soviets and ordered the action cease and the commander of the Kwantung army be sacked.
The Japanese were fearful of a land war with the Soviets, pure and simple.
What Sorge did do (I assume he was Stalin's spy in Japan but am not sure of this) that was pivital was to inform Stalin that the Japanese had no intentions against the Soviets in the East, freeing something like 40 divisions to move to the West in the Winter of 1941 allowing the Soviets to counter-attack the Germans effectively.
=S=
Lunatic
I doubt very much that Sorge was the primary motivator of the Japanese as you indicate. Remember, in Nov. 1939 the Japanese attacked the Soviets along the Manchurian boarder. They were bitterly defeated, loosing something around 50,000 soldiers while inflicting less than 10,000 losses on the Soviets. Reportedly Hirohito was furious with the Army for having instigated hostilities with the Soviets and ordered the action cease and the commander of the Kwantung army be sacked.
The Japanese were fearful of a land war with the Soviets, pure and simple.
What Sorge did do (I assume he was Stalin's spy in Japan but am not sure of this) that was pivital was to inform Stalin that the Japanese had no intentions against the Soviets in the East, freeing something like 40 divisions to move to the West in the Winter of 1941 allowing the Soviets to counter-attack the Germans effectively.
=S=
Lunatic
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Lunatic,
Doubts are allowed, of course. Sorge did not made the decision, that has to be underlined. He was, however, not the only person to take influence on the political decision, the japanese made in 1941. Yamamoto for example warned that a war against the US would be a very risky one. Documentations about Sorge are hard to get. (the soviets did not acknowledge him prior to 1964)I had acces to some russian documents which simply proof that he was member of NKVD (1933-34 first try to establish an information collective network in Japan), convinced communist (his uncle was secretary of Karl Marx!), member of the Nazi party (he worked for the german Embassy in Japan as an agent of the Abwehr (counterspy-that allowed him to double check all informations) However he did, but he managed to work with Ozaki Hozumi, who closely worked together with the japanese prime minister Fumimaro Konoye. I had a talk with the wife of the japanese ambassador in Berlin, Mrs. Aiko Takashima on january 24th. Dr. Sorge is well known to her. She told me, that he was even "familar" to the emperor himself. Whether his influence was remains unknown, he turned to be active and tried to influence others and he voted not to atack Russia. Tensions have been to both nations, the US as well as Russia. He did influence the prime minister via Ozaki (and by himself) . According to www. japan-101.com\history\richard_sorge.htm he also warned for the Pearl Harbour Attack, but no documents are delivered on that Site to proof it. I doubt that he knew much about that. He was suspiscious and some messages were intercepted by japanes secret service in middle 1941. Ozaki was arrested on October 14 and Sorge 4 days later. even the day of his death is not clear in all sources, some indicate it was late in 1943 others he was hanged in october 1944. To say the japanese were simply fearful of a land war against russia is only partly correct. Every nation, including the US is fearful to fight a prolonged land war against Russia, I agree. With the difficulties the russians faced at the early campaigns (Smolensk, Kiev) in mind, it would have been a different matter. Japanese military remained strong in the Manchurian until the russian attacked them in 1945 with numerical overwhelming and experienced forces. In 1941 the Manchurian Army was more a thread to the russians. (..resulting in an military build up along the border until the german attacked russia..) It would have been logical to attack russia instead of the US or not? The german ambassador in Japan was actually surprised that it did not happen. Who knows about Dr. Sorge in detail? I am no wizard. But even if his actions had no significant impact on the political decision regarding whether to atack the US or not (we simply don´t know all details), it remains that his informations allowed Zhukov to deploy needed forces to hold Moscow (both, numerical, experienced and -what seems to be more important- with good troop morale) and to counteratack in the winter. That happens to a dangerous time (for the soviets, when the Stalin tried via the rumanien ambassador to make peace with Hitler, he was even willing to sacrifice Belorussia for that!).
Doubts are allowed, of course. Sorge did not made the decision, that has to be underlined. He was, however, not the only person to take influence on the political decision, the japanese made in 1941. Yamamoto for example warned that a war against the US would be a very risky one. Documentations about Sorge are hard to get. (the soviets did not acknowledge him prior to 1964)I had acces to some russian documents which simply proof that he was member of NKVD (1933-34 first try to establish an information collective network in Japan), convinced communist (his uncle was secretary of Karl Marx!), member of the Nazi party (he worked for the german Embassy in Japan as an agent of the Abwehr (counterspy-that allowed him to double check all informations) However he did, but he managed to work with Ozaki Hozumi, who closely worked together with the japanese prime minister Fumimaro Konoye. I had a talk with the wife of the japanese ambassador in Berlin, Mrs. Aiko Takashima on january 24th. Dr. Sorge is well known to her. She told me, that he was even "familar" to the emperor himself. Whether his influence was remains unknown, he turned to be active and tried to influence others and he voted not to atack Russia. Tensions have been to both nations, the US as well as Russia. He did influence the prime minister via Ozaki (and by himself) . According to www. japan-101.com\history\richard_sorge.htm he also warned for the Pearl Harbour Attack, but no documents are delivered on that Site to proof it. I doubt that he knew much about that. He was suspiscious and some messages were intercepted by japanes secret service in middle 1941. Ozaki was arrested on October 14 and Sorge 4 days later. even the day of his death is not clear in all sources, some indicate it was late in 1943 others he was hanged in october 1944. To say the japanese were simply fearful of a land war against russia is only partly correct. Every nation, including the US is fearful to fight a prolonged land war against Russia, I agree. With the difficulties the russians faced at the early campaigns (Smolensk, Kiev) in mind, it would have been a different matter. Japanese military remained strong in the Manchurian until the russian attacked them in 1945 with numerical overwhelming and experienced forces. In 1941 the Manchurian Army was more a thread to the russians. (..resulting in an military build up along the border until the german attacked russia..) It would have been logical to attack russia instead of the US or not? The german ambassador in Japan was actually surprised that it did not happen. Who knows about Dr. Sorge in detail? I am no wizard. But even if his actions had no significant impact on the political decision regarding whether to atack the US or not (we simply don´t know all details), it remains that his informations allowed Zhukov to deploy needed forces to hold Moscow (both, numerical, experienced and -what seems to be more important- with good troop morale) and to counteratack in the winter. That happens to a dangerous time (for the soviets, when the Stalin tried via the rumanien ambassador to make peace with Hitler, he was even willing to sacrifice Belorussia for that!).
RG_Lunatic said:cheddar cheese said:Yeah I agree. If it wasnt a Battle, why is it known as the BATTLE of Britain and not the CAMPAIGN of Britain?
Because "Britain" starts with a B and it just sounds good.
I am sorry but yes it was a compaign but it was a battle also. I consider it the BATTLE OF BRITIAN. And I consider it one of the most important battles. It is the same argument as the East front, West front, Med front, N. Afrika Front, South Front, North East front, etc etc, blah blah blah.
