The New Eastern Front

[Gixxerman]

The interception problem for the V1 was simple, the allied invasion had reduced its launching points to only a few which meant that it was possible to concentrate AA defenses and Barage balloons to a narrow stretch of coast between the launch sites and the possible targets.

That's not entirely the whole story though.
The LW did air-launch over 1000 of them.
But again between radar directed VT fused AAA and the allied nightfighters that can hardly be labelled a great success either.

I'm not denying the V1 was a very inexpensive system (I've seen a price of £125 a throw for them) and undoubtedly to be on the receiving end of one that gets through is to have the mother of all bad days but I just find it hard to see it as having much effect to the strategic situation (given the actual history of it.....and coupled with the spy networks doing everything they could to spoof the Germans in aiming targetting).

I think 'revenge weapon' was just about as accurate (if unwittingly) a description as it gets.
A dose of revenge, a lashing out as best as they could........ but doing absolutely nothing to avert the dreadful looming utter catastrophe that the nazi leadership had unleashed brought down on the heads of the German people.

 

[tyrodtom]

American physicist Freeman Dyson had this to say about the V2 program.
" Those of us who were seriously engaged in the war were very grateful to Wernher Von Braun. We knew that each V2 cost as much to produce as a high performance fighter aircraft. We knew that German forces on the fighting fronts were in desperate need of aircraft, and the V2 were doing us no military damage. From our point of view the V2 program was almost as good as if Hitler had adopted a program of unilateral disarmament"

The V1 and V2 programs combined cost more that the Manhatten project. Each V2 launch took more than 30 tons of potatoes to make the alcohol for the fuel, this is while Germans were short of food. More people were killed in the V2 construction, than by it's warhead.

All the V1 and V2 accomplished was giving the American and Russian space, and missile programs a leg up AFTER the war was over.



All the V1 and V2 programs did was add many nails to the 3rd Reichs coffin. Now that IS something to bragg about.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

For those interested in this topic, I suggest reading the books "Fox on the Rhine" and "Fox at the Front'. Of course they are not realistic, but they pretty much go about this topic.

 

[Milosh]

The Germans basically didn't have time to get these units into mass production or to launch them at near enough targets.

So how many of these uber Fieseler Fi 103 were actually launched at targets?

Morover no known to me allied aircraft, jet or piston could've intercepted it.

The Meteor F.3 was available from late 1944/early 1945. The short nacelles of the F.1 limited top speed to 500mph IAS, so there is no reason not to believe the F.3 could not achieve 515mph to intercept the Fieseler Fi 103.

 

[Milosh]

Found this link, Allied Missiles - soc.history.war.world-war-ii | Google Groups , when looking for info on the Ewald II midcourse guidance stations.

eunometic = Siegfried?

 

[cimmex]

If the V1 was so useless, why did the Brits fear it so much and spent so much effort for intercepting, shoot it down or attacking the launch sites? I think they spent a lot of money to do this
cimmex

 

[bada]

The Meteor F.3 was available from late 1944/early 1945. The short nacelles of the F.1 limited top speed to 500mph IAS, so there is no reason not to believe the F.3 could not achieve 515mph to intercept the Fieseler Fi 103.

Hello milosh just as info:
Actually, no it couldn't.
The F3 was still limited to 500mph and it's level flight max speed was 465. (report page 7 point54-page12 point90-page18 table)

See the RAF evaluation report from 04/1946 on Mike william's site. it gives a very good view about the early meteors and especially the difficulties the first gen jet 's producers had to overcome before the german aero tunnel data was used for production.

 

[Gixxerman]

If the V1 was so useless, why did the Brits fear it so much and spent so much effort for intercepting, shoot it down or attacking the launch sites? I think they spent a lot of money to do this
cimmex

Yes they did indeed invest a lot of AAA aircraft tackling the V1 threat.
But the point is that this was at a time in the war when (a) the allies could easily afford to do so and (b) the effect of the V1 was negligible on the overall strategic situation.
It was a problem of course, but more a nuisance for the nations (and a tragedy of course for those individuals suffering its effects when one got through).
It did absolutely nothing to change the course of the war.

The problem it had (like all the early missiles) was it's guidance system ensured it could not be used on point targets, so a big city was its usual destination.
Unfortunately it arrived at a time when the allies' AAA had just taken a huge leap forward with the cheap reliable VT proximity fuse being available in growing huge numbers, couple that with radar systems that were growing in maturity (both in terms of airbourne AAA fire control) and you start to see why by the end of the war the V1 was nothing like the threat the German military had hoped it would be or that it once was at the start of its campaign.

It's not that they are useless but that they do have limitations due to the tech being so immature.
Had the V1 been capable of greater accuracy (and some of this is also thanks to the false info XX spys were sending back to Germany) and being launched from a host of different directions (which relates to its accuracy range limitations) then it could have been much more of a problem.
The ability to alter course would have been useful - had the Germans used it on a large number of targets, but when you're simply sending them to London or Antwerp the vast majority of the time it does make your defences' job a lot easier.

If they had had them in numbers just 2 weeks earlier been able cover the southern ports of England then D-day would have been in serious trouble.
But this is largely to do with the almost total failure of the LW's reconnaissance.

 

[Siegfried]

American physicist Freeman Dyson had this to say about the V2 program.

1 " Those of us who were seriously engaged in the war were very grateful to Wernher Von Braun. We knew that each V2 cost as much to produce as a high performance fighter aircraft. We knew that German forces on the fighting fronts were in desperate need of aircraft, and the V2 were doing us no military damage. From our point of view the V2 program was almost as good as if Hitler had adopted a program of unilateral disarmament"

2 The V1 and V2 programs combined cost more that the Manhatten project. Each V2 launch took more than 30 tons of potatoes to make the alcohol for the fuel, this is while Germans were short of food. More people were killed in the V2 construction, than by it's warhead.

All the V1 and V2 accomplished was giving the American and Russian space, and missile programs a leg up AFTER the war was over.

All the V1 and V2 programs did was add many nails to the 3rd Reichs coffin. Now that IS something to bragg about.

Everyone of these statements is a miss-statement or has rational explanation.

Dyson sounds like one of those people who makes authorative pronoucements without studying that matter in depth.

I've numbered your quote in bold so I may answer it one by one.

1

The V2 program did not reach the maturity it required to be a cost effective weapon, though that was only a few months away. Timming is everything and also the most diffcult of things to get right. The Nazis were only months away from turning the V2 into a very cost effective weapon. Reuter quotes the cost of a complete V2 production at 3750 hours after the 10,000th example. This is actually about 1/2 the cost of a high performance fighter when the costs of the fighter is considered inclusive of engine, guns, avionics (radio, radio navigation). One key change was the use of the mischduse (mixing plate) combustion chamber which replaced the 18 subchamber design with its labyrinth of plumbing, this design became neccessary after EMW chief rocket engine designe, Dr Walter Thiel, died along with his family after a RAF bomb hit his home. The subsitution of stainless steel by passivate aluminium and aluminium itself by pressed steel added further cost reductions. The fuel tank was to be made out of fibre reinforced plastic (tested in the stretched winged A4b) The V2's electronic analog computer, the first in the world, was ingeniously accurate and cheap: it provided a cheap way of obtaining precision.

Now it needs to be noted that the V2 required no expensive pilot to be trained, nor his rehabilation in hospital when he was injured or on an invalid pension when he was maimed nor the ongoing support of his grieving widow and children. I required no airfield to be maintained or defended, no air-sea rescue, no escort fighters, jamming aircraft. It hardly needed a clearing in the woods and the kind of support provided by a maintenance crew to an aircraft. No V2 launch site was ever discovered let alone destroyed.

The other thing that needs to be noted is in regards to accuracy. The LEV-3 guidance system consisted of two gyroscopes with potentiometer pickoffs and one PIGA acceleromter to measure missile speed and control missile cutoff at the required velocity. Excluding the effects of missile malfunction and the double cross espionge system it provided an CEP of 4.5km; and in practice the system got close to this. Sounds miserable but it is considerably better than Bomber Command managed under H2S or the USAAF under H2X on a cloudy day. LEV-3 was primitive but was an interim system only. It incidenly proved its value in putting America's first man in space and also its first satelite into orbit, a function of its simplicity. The LEV-3 was to be replaced by SG-66 or the SG-70 whch had which 3 gyros were on a stable 3 axis gimbal that allowed the inclusion of a lateral acceleromter to null out cross winds. The method is more accurate 'in terms of the gyroscope conditions and also included refinements such as a dithers applied to the gyros to improve accuracy by breaking stiction. F.K.Mueller, the inventor of accelerometer also had gaseous bearing gyros in the lab one of which went to see in a u-boats inertial guidance system. It's probably fair to assume a rentry accuracy of about 1km with dome degradation upon re-entry due to high altitude winds.

About 20% of V2 launches were with the Viktoria beam reiding system, this was a simple 2 dimensional azimuth only system and neglected the elevation trajectory of the missile. It cut lateral dispersion in half, while a doppler system cut range dispersion by 10%. One could say the CEP was now and elipse of lenth 4km and width 2k radious.

The long worked upon ultimate system was "vollzirkel" (full circle) which used a colimated 3D beam riding system backed up by combined doppler speed and transponder range cutoff. It was dimensioned to control the re-entry point to within only 300m. Again winds would have caused dispersal.

Hence the V2 Swith the SG66 inertial guidance type system should have an accuracy of just over 1km while the 'vollzirkel' system just over 300m (perhaps 1/2km of dispersion on a windy day). SG-66 was test flown while voll zirkel was, after 2 years of tests, being produced in its hoped for final form. There was a lot of trouble avoiding ground plane interference.

2

The claim that the V2 cost as much as the Manhatten project is also wrong. The claim is that it was as much a proportion of German GDP as the Manhatten project was of US GDP was the original claim. Even this is doubtfull.

If one factors in 'weapons systems' such as the B-29 or B-17, includes rather massive R+D costs, NACA wind tunnels, dead pilots, unit production costs and new factories (that haven't been amortised) then they also look extremely rediclously expensive.

One only nees to consider that had the RAF raid no succeded in delaying the V2 (it targeted the workers housing like many bomber command raids) and had some decisions been made differently the V2 might have been in serice considerably earlier. Had the storms that pevented any supplies raching shore for several days dueing the normandy landings come earlier and lasted longer the landing might have failed and the V2 come into its own.

The production targets, originally seen as 1000 units a month were pushed to 4000-5000 month by Hitler, which is why the Dora forced labour factory came into the picture.

The A4b, the 'winged V2 of which two were launched (one succesfully) had a range designed to reach Britain from Germany. Interesting was its accuracy which was to be 180m. It used a midcourse update system which used a Wassemann radar layed on its side with a modified IFF transponder for range, a dithering and frequency changing system was used for anti-jamming provision.

So, the V2, in its refined form was an cost effective and accurate system that could have economically delivered destruction to specified areas.

It was possibly the most sensibe use of funds. Admitedly it was too late, but only by about 6 months.

The Germans could have fairly comfortably thrown 2000 missiles a month out. At 4000 hours/missile then 25 people could produce 1 missile/month and 25,000 over 1000. It was an affordable concept. Throw 2000 of these at the Spitfire factory around Castle Bromwich and they are bound to have an effect.

It's also wrong to compare the cost effectiveness of a Lancaster against a V2, the German had little chance of opperating a bomber force big enough, they could however build thousands of V2 at less cost than opperating bomber command and those missiles would get through.

The opportunity cost, ie no developing a fielded SAM may have been the only cost.

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... If they had had them in numbers just 2 weeks earlier been able cover the southern ports of England then D-day would have been in serious trouble.
But this is largely to do with the almost total failure of the LW's reconnaissance."

Sobering thought. Failure of intelligence .... or masterful concealment ..

MM

 

[Gixxerman]

Both I think Michael.

It is beyond question that the LW's reconnaisance had failed miserably in the lead-up to D-day and it took the arrival of the Arado 234 jet, actually a pre-production prototype - still using the trolley skid landing gear, to appear to correct his.....and interestingly once again it was just a matter of a week or two late.
If the Germans had been able to photograph large parts of Southern England - even accepting the widespread use of decoys - then at least some - a lot? - of the D-day mystery would have been revealed.

It is also undeniable that the allied side's intel work in WW2 was absolutely something masterful.
From the XX turned agent netword still supplying misinformation to the German command into spring 1945 (which had the V1 V2's aiming altered so they landed well away from anything vital).
To the genius that was Ultra.
It's actually true that Germany was one of the early digital computer pioneers - Konrad Zuse being their famous pioneer with his 'Z' computers....but I sure as hell know whose computers I'd rather have had which proved to be the more useful to the war effort.
Take a bow Bletchley Park personnel Alan Turing particularly.
They really were streets ahead and by most reckoning saved the world at least 2yrs additional agony in reaching the inevitable.

 

[tyrodtom]

Siegfried only 6048 V2 were made, 3750 man hours at 10,000 is just a bs projection.

Nowhere did I say the V2 project cost more than the Manhatten project, I said the combined cost of the V1 AND V2 projects were more than the Manhatten Project. If you add in B-29 developement cost ( the 2nd most expensive allied project) It does almost equal. But you're comparing to successful allied programs, with 2 German failures.

Lets just compare the V1 and V2s targetting Antwerp, 4000 V1s, 1700 V2s, produced in Antwerp provence ( have to consider the whole provence, since only about 10% hit Antwerp itself) 3700 killed, 6000 injured. That by anyone's standards is a dismal failure.

It seems all your Nazi superweapons were just a few months or weeks from perfection, strange isn't it.

 

[Jenisch]

Siegfried

It seems all your Nazi superweapons were just a few months or weeks from perfection, strange isn't it.

The fun is just on this. One or other mistake from Hitler prevented the wonder weapons from defeat the Allies. =D

ironic mode/off

 

[Matt308]

well...

 

[tyrodtom]

I always thought the V2 program in particular was just a scam.

It was a ego trip for Von Brauhn, he just wanted his theories proven, his real interest was space. He saw a sucker to fund his research, and just looked the other way when confronted with more unpleasant aspects of his program.

For the SS it was all about money, they were getting rich. Everbody in the hierarchy knew the war was lost, they needed big money for afterward. How better to make a fortune but to have very cheap labor, and still be able to sell that labor cheaper than anyone else.

Where did all that money go? In secret Swiss bank accounts of course. That's probably where a lot of ODESSA's funds came from after the war.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It was a ego trip for Von Brauhn, he just wanted his theories proven, his real interest was space. He saw a sucker to fund his research, and just looked the other way when confronted with more unpleasant aspects of his program.

I would not necessarily call it an ego trip, but I agree with you. The only thing he cared about was his research and the getting into space. He did not care however, what he had to do to accomplish it, and the lives of those that had to be spent.

 

[michaelmaltby]

... and Albert Speer who ran armaments after Fritz Todt preferred the psychology of V Weapons over the more mundane stuff (Adam Tooze, "Wages of Destruction").

 

[Jenisch]

Gixxerman, I forgot to remind you that you was comparing the T-34-85 with the original Panther, when the correct would be compare it with the Panther II.

 

[tyrodtom]

Speer might have also been looking toward the future.

For a while he entertained the thought that the allies would need him for postwar reconstruction in Germany. He was a little surprized when he was charged with war crimes.

 

[Gixxerman]

Gixxerman, I forgot to remind you that you was comparing the T-34-85 with the original Panther, when the correct would be compare it with the Panther II.

Really?
How many Panther 2's made it to the front.
Zero, if I recall correctly.
Whereas several thousand T34/85's did.