The sweet spot for a carrier air group early in the Pacific War:

[fliger747]

Percentage of Fighters, Scouts, Bombers and Torpeckers? With hindsight is the number of VT's zero?

 

[mikewint]

Typical air group composition aboard the Yorktown Class carriers, at the beginning of World War II, consisted of approximately 72 aircraft:
1 fighter squadron (VF) composed of 18 Grumman F4F Wildcats
1 bombing squadron (VB) composed of 18 Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bombers
1 scouting squadron (VS) composed of 18 Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bombers
1 torpedo squadron (VT) composed of 18 Douglas TBD Devastator or Grumman TBF/TBM Avenger torpedo bombers

During the course of the war in the Pacific, the compositions of the air groups changed drastically. The scouting squadrons were eliminated by early 1943 and the number of fighter planes was increased continuously.
Typically in 1943 an Essex class carrier carried:
1 Fighter Squadron (VF) composed of 36 F4F or F6F fighters
1 Bombing Squadron (VB) consisting of 36 SBD bombers
1 Torpedo Squadron (VT) consisting of 18 TBM or TBF torpedo planes.

By the end of WWII, a typical Essex air group was over 100 aircraft, consisting of :
1 squadron of 18 Grumman F6F Hellcat fighters
4 squadrons of 72 Vought F4U Corsair fighter/bombers
1 squadron of 12 Grumman TBM Avenger torpedo bombers

 

[The Basket]

Who performed scouting duties?
It is quite a skill so not sure if it could be ad hoc.

 

[Shortround6]

Percentage of Fighters, Scouts, Bombers and Torpeckers? With hindsight is the number of VT's zero?

it really requires hindsight as the torpedo was the primary ship killing weapon in the early part of the war or considered so.
The 1600lb AP bomb does not exist and the SBD-3 can't carry it anyhow. In fact the handbook for the SBD-3 shows only 100 gallons of fuel when carrying a 1000lb bomb.

You have to get to the SBD-5 before the plane is rated for the 1600lb on the center line and and 325lb bombs under the wing and lots of luck carrying that very far.
The f4Fs only carry 100lb bombs (at least until the FM-2), The F6F won't show up until Sept 1943. and it took a while to get bombs. The SBC-2 won't show up until Nov of 1943. And the SBD-5 only shows up at some point in 1943 itself.
Without Avengers (with or without torpedoes) the US Aircraft carriers are rather lacking in "punch" in 1942 and 1943 and early 1944.
They are not ideal, they have few flaws of their own, but they can carry a heavy load a good distance.

You not only need hindsight, you need to change production schedules and/or develop a new plane and/or weapon during the time period in question.

 

[RCAFson]

Yorktown's complement before and at Coral Sea:

When orders were received at about 2100, May 3, 1942, that the Yorktown Air Group would attack the enemy at Tulagi on May 4, there were the following aircraft and spares available for operation:

VB -15 operative 3 spares (SBD's)
VF -17 operative 2 spares (F4F-3's)
VS -15 operative 2 spares (SBD's)
VT -12 operative 1 spare (TBD's)...

(Coral Sea)
Task Organization of Air Group
Air Group Commander, Lt.Comdr. Oscar Pederson, USN.
VT-5- 9 TBD's- Lt.Comdr. J. Taylor, USN.
VS-5- 13 SBD's- Lt.Comdr. W.O. Burch, jr., USN.
VF-42- 14 F4F-3's- Lt.Comdr. C.R. Fenton, USN.
VB-5- 17 SBD's- Lieut. W.C. Short, jr., USN.
U.S.S. Yorktown--Action Report of the Battle of the Coral Sea

The same report states a recommended revised complement.

 

[Conslaw]

Who performed scouting duties?
It is quite a skill so not sure if it could be ad hoc.

By 1944, a typical task group within Task Force 38 or 58 would have 3 CVs and 3 CVLs. Even if carrier had only one squadron of TBF/TBM aboard and no SB2C or SBD, each task group would have around 80 Avengers to perform scouting and ASW. If they were operating in an area with escort carriers, the escort carriers might be tasked with performing the ASW.

 

[Shortround6]

Who performed scouting duties?
It is quite a skill so not sure if it could be ad hoc.

The SBDs and TBFs could both perform scouting missions. How well the crews were trained for it maybe another story but the manuals and Airplane Characteristics and Performance sheets list scout missions and the loadouts for such missions (fuel and/or light bombs).

 

[fliger747]

I believe (but don't know the date) that some TBF's were radar equipped which made for a more effective scouting aircraft. From the pilots point of view made it easier to fine the ship on return as well.

 

[The Basket]

Did radar take the place of scouting?
I am not familiar with USN.
As more ships had radar and as the numerical supremacy of the USN took hold then maybe scouting took a back seat?
Considering Midway and Coral Sea then getting lax with recon seems counter intuitive.

Did the fighters scout? Not ideal but certainly better than nothing. 80 Avengers may seem a lot but the Pacific is very big and the Yamato guns are even bigger! So crates need to be airborne as close to 24/7 as possible covering as much real estate as possible.

It would be interesting to know who was recon in say 44 and how that differed from 42. Certainly not a glamour role and spent too long looking at empty ocean but not something that can be left to chance.

 

[fliger747]

The airborne radar helped scouting when visibility was limited. The pacific often has a low cloud layer, the radar allows the aircraft to do initial search from a higher altitude. Overnight ships could move a limited distance so often carriers would retreat distance wise to ensure no unfortunate night engagement took place with enemy surface units.

An advantage of crewed aircraft for scouts were better navigation and the presence of a trained radio operator. Most position reports would be sent in at least Morris code.

 

[fliger747]

Given your choice, what would be your air group composition for Midway?

 

[The Basket]

Get rid of the Devastators.
Or use them as scouts.
More Wildcats more Dauntless.

 

[Shortround6]

What weapons do you want to use?

Airplanes do not sink ships. Bombs and torpedoes sink ships.

The US 1600lb AP bomb (needed pretty much only for battleships) became available in in May of 1942. How long it took to get distributed to all carriers in forward areas is another question.I was in error before, the older Dauntlesses were re-rated to carry this bomb. However the fuel load/gross weight and take off distances seem to bounce around a bit. Even later in in the war it was rare for a carrier to carry even 20 of these bombs in the ships magazines. T
The US 1000lb AP MK 33 bomb didn't show up until Oct 1942 with the same question about how rapid the actual distribution was. This bomb became much more common.

There were earlier AP bombs but they only carried about 5% explosive by weight instead of the 13% & 15% of the newer bombs.

With hindsight we KNOW that the US carrier forces did not have to deal with the Japanese battleships in 1942 or for much of 1943 so the bomb/aircraft situation can be adjusted accordingly. Lots of dive bombers with 500 & 1000 lb GP or SAP bombs will handle the carriers, cruisers and destroyers just fine. In Hindsight we also KNOW that Japanese damage control left something to be desired and they lost ships that perhaps the Americans wouldn't have given a similar number of bomb hits from similar weapons. No need to let large amounts of water into the hull with torpedoes.

 

[The Basket]

Airplanes do sink ships!
Kamikaze!
Only torpedo that go bang sink ships.

 

[Shortround6]

Try crashing fighters or single engine planes that ARE NOT CARRYING BOMBS onto the ships and tell me how many ships sink?

The whole idea of the Kamikaze was to turn the plane into a guided bomb.

 

[BiffF15]

I believe (but don't know the date) that some TBF's were radar equipped which made for a more effective scouting aircraft. From the pilots point of view made it easier to fine the ship on return as well.

I found this at the WW2 Museum in New Orleans and wanted to ask the knowledge bank here if any had SA on this.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Shortround6]

A very large number of TBFs, SBDs, SB2-C had search radar later in the war. this site says 26,000 sets were built

The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia: ASV Airborne Radar

This was with simple Yagi aerials and not the "pod" Biff is asking about.

 

[fliger747]

Surprised at the stated range accuracy, 10%? Usually Radar is much more accurate in range than direction.

 

[BiffF15]

Surprised at the stated range accuracy, 10%? Usually Radar is much more accurate in range than direction.

10% in range and 3 degrees In accuracy. So at 60 miles it was off 3 miles in AZ and 6 in range. At 30 miles it was off by half that (1.5 and 3), or at 15 (.75 & 1.5). For the day that sounds pretty accurate either way, as neither will dramatically change mission outcome as they needed visual acquisition to employ / deliver weapons (I would think). Dropping torps from low altitude in the goo would require plotting a heading and speed but not sure what skills a late war operator would have (aircraft / radar is moving so establishing a drift would be tough with no inertial navigation inputs).

Cheers,
Biff

 

[fliger747]

I might be wrong, but I have a dim recollection that the Black cat PBY's dropped some torpedos at night using Radar to surprise out of the stygian gloom.