pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
could it be said that the Italian airmen were good pilots but slow to pick up or employ the tactics needed in modern warfare and to me that would point to people at squadron level
The truth about Regia Aeronautica
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not C.R. 42 in spain,
the italian industrial system was not at same level of british, german, american..., in some sector this was only a dimension question in other also of quality (or best technology level).
Obv. the RA make that can make considerate the actual situation.
back to example to fighter procurement there were three wins, surely too, but in RA saw the air fight in old manner (acrobatic) this is valid not only for the generals but also for pilots in the 1940 a fighter gruppo don't take their M.C. 200 for take the C.R. 42, the G. 50 was of easiest production of M.C. 200 the production line of G. 50 were available and sure need many time for converter that in the (licence) production of M.C. 200, so the choice of both G. 50 and M.C. 200 had some hard motivation the choice of C.R. 42 no (we are talking of '39 the monoplane fighter show in espana, and italians were here, their capability so don't a biplane reserve in the case of fault of monoplanes) but here take in consideration the old tactics in the mind of RA so there is a wrong in the politics that not put the just people in the just place and the corruption (the fiat was/is one of largest italian firm).
the italian industrial system was not at same level of british, german, american..., in some sector this was only a dimension question in other also of quality (or best technology level).
Obv. the RA make that can make considerate the actual situation.
back to example to fighter procurement there were three wins, surely too, but in RA saw the air fight in old manner (acrobatic) this is valid not only for the generals but also for pilots in the 1940 a fighter gruppo don't take their M.C. 200 for take the C.R. 42, the G. 50 was of easiest production of M.C. 200 the production line of G. 50 were available and sure need many time for converter that in the (licence) production of M.C. 200, so the choice of both G. 50 and M.C. 200 had some hard motivation the choice of C.R. 42 no (we are talking of '39 the monoplane fighter show in espana, and italians were here, their capability so don't a biplane reserve in the case of fault of monoplanes) but here take in consideration the old tactics in the mind of RA so there is a wrong in the politics that not put the just people in the just place and the corruption (the fiat was/is one of largest italian firm).
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parsifal
Colonel
Regarding the CR42, this aircraft did have some saving graces. Allied monoplane fighters found them very difficult to shoot down, and if they allowed themselves to gert into a turning dight, the advantage actually swung in favour of the Italian biplane. Hence the predilection to aerobatic manouvres over speed and dive tactics. Pre-war, the italains had engaged in impressive aerobatic displays allover Europe. Their training therefore emphasised manouvre over all other possibilities.
CR42s were employed effectively until the end as ground support aircraft. Their low speed , pleasant flying characteristics and extreme agility made them highly suited to the role. Their lack of armour worked against them however. Whilst not as effective as a Ju87 in this role, they still provided Rommel with a great deal of support in that capacity
CR42s were employed effectively until the end as ground support aircraft. Their low speed , pleasant flying characteristics and extreme agility made them highly suited to the role. Their lack of armour worked against them however. Whilst not as effective as a Ju87 in this role, they still provided Rommel with a great deal of support in that capacity
Shortround6
Major General
I once read an account of a single days operations by an Italian fighter squadron on the Russian Front in winter. With no contact with the enemy they lost engines, planes, and mechanics sent to the hospital with frostbite. A dedicated bunch of men trying to do their best under very difficult conditions. As I recall (around 30 years ago that I read it ) the unit had only two engine heaters and it required both of them to warm a single engine enough to start. So one engine would be started and and idled until another one could be started and so on. By the time they were working on the third or fourth airplane the first one would have to be shut down, even in those temperatures they couldn't idle an engine for long periods of time (well over an hour I think?) and the oil would thicken up enough that the oil pump drives would break when the engines were restarted. The thick oil would prevent the oil pressure gauges from reading correctly and in a single day several engines were wrecked. Flights were put in the air and some planes had the shock absorbers freeze solid ( or close enough to it) while flying which lead to several planes being wrecked on landing.
They did manage to put up flights or patrols 3 different times in one day (morning, mid-day and late afternoon) under such conditions. I don't think any other Air force could have done much better under those conditions except maybe the Russians who had somewhat more practice in dealing with those conditions.
It wasn't glamorous or heroic except in the sense of men trying to do their duty in spite of weather and equipment shortages.
They did manage to put up flights or patrols 3 different times in one day (morning, mid-day and late afternoon) under such conditions. I don't think any other Air force could have done much better under those conditions except maybe the Russians who had somewhat more practice in dealing with those conditions.
It wasn't glamorous or heroic except in the sense of men trying to do their duty in spite of weather and equipment shortages.
al49
Tech Sergeant
Again this is taking back to my point.
The biggest mistake was done by the government.
To send 230,000 men , with inadequate equipment, to fight in Russia was a decision taken mostly for "prestige" reasons that subtracted men and resources that could be better used in North Africa or to take Malta.
Speaking about aeroplanes and in addition to what said above, the idea to send Macchi C 200, WITH THEIR OPEN COCKPIT, to fly in the Russian winter was simply foolish!
About the Fiat CR 42, yes she was a nice plane, good fighter in the beginning and valid for ground support later.
The production ended in late 1943 (274 built between July 1942 and July 1943), by the same time Germany was successfully testing the Me 262, why these resources were't dedicated to produce some G 55?
On the total production of CR 42, 110 pcs were built as "night figther"
Besides a few BF 110 that arrived too late, Regia Aeronautica based its opposition to night bombing on aprox 100 Re 2001 CN and above night Falcos.
Even if they were too few in number, the Reggiane fighter were well armed, with two 20 mm MG-151 guns in under-wing gondolas, but the CR 42 only had two 12,7 mg and search lights, really not enough to go against formations of hundreds of Lancasters.
If not yet known, I recommend to Italian speakers to read this book:
Written by Franco Pagliano, a former RA pilot, give a clear picture of our airforce in WW2.
I don't know if iot has been translated in English.
Alberto
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
I don't know enough to comment on this, one thing is for sure though, I do want to know a lot more about the RA. Hopefully this will be the right thread for that....
- Thread starter
- #27
Saetta66
Airman
Very, very interesting conversation about something that all the italian members but I can surely say all the aviation and history fans will enjoy: my dream is to create here one day a Regia Aeronautica room, a place where to tell stories, post pics of planes, unforms and badges, talk with other aviation experts.
Why not? A dream can become true
Why not? A dream can become true
- Thread starter
- #28
Saetta66
Airman
If not yet known, I recommend to Italian speakers to read this book:
Written by Franco Pagliano, a former RA pilot, give a clear picture of our airforce in WW2.
I don't know if iot has been translated in English.
Alberto[/QUOTE]
Ciao (Hello) Alberto !
Very interesting book, a masterpiece in italian aviation literature. But I think that unfortunately it has not been translted in english.
Me, I can reccomand this english book to anyone interested on RA: simply great IMHO !
Chris Dunning made an excellent job. Congratulations to him, guys.
Written by Franco Pagliano, a former RA pilot, give a clear picture of our airforce in WW2.
I don't know if iot has been translated in English.
Alberto[/QUOTE]
Ciao (Hello) Alberto !
Very interesting book, a masterpiece in italian aviation literature. But I think that unfortunately it has not been translted in english.
Me, I can reccomand this english book to anyone interested on RA: simply great IMHO !
Chris Dunning made an excellent job. Congratulations to him, guys.
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- Thread starter
- #29
Saetta66
Airman
This words are heavy like a million tons of the toughest stone and make me proud and happy. So we were not the cowards that the propoganda wanted us to be....
That's an important truth that came out in this small thread. Fantastic, IMHO.
al49
Tech Sergeant
If not yet known, I recommend to Italian speakers to read this book:
Written by Franco Pagliano, a former RA pilot, give a clear picture of our airforce in WW2.
I don't know if iot has been translated in English.
Alberto
Ciao (Hello) Alberto !
Very interesting book, a masterpiece in italian aviation literature. But I think that unfortunately it has not been translted in english.
Me, I can reccomand this english book to anyone interested on RA: simply great IMHO !
Chris Dunning made an excellent job. Congratulations to him, guys.[/QUOTE]
I agree, the book from Chris Dunning is very good, even if I've been told by experts that there are a few mistakes, but it covers all various aspects of RA and, as said by Saetta, it's in English.
Alberto
Same as me, I hope it stays informative and civil.
It is one man's opinion, I think you are blowing it out of proportion a bit.
I have never seen anyone argue that the RA were cowards. Rather their tactics and much of their equipment were not on par. And their strategists started operations that were impossible to accomplish successfully with any reasonable degree of probability. Same as late war Germany in a way, but really from the start. Hence the impression with many Germans that they had to "help out", wherever Mussolini had been a little too confident. I don't know enough about those operations to assess whether this impression has truth in it or not, I'm just saying that this is what is critizised. Not the courage or fighting ability of the common Italian soldier.
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"It is one man's opinion, I think you are blowing it out of proportion a bit."
Pointing out that what one person says is just "one man's opinion" is generally designed to invalidate the matter asserted as all men have opinions and opinions, as you know, are like arseholes.
George Buerling's opinion is a single man's opinion but an opinion based on first hand air to air combat by "The Falcon of Malta," the most successful Canadian fighter pilot in WWII who faced off against Germans and Italians, often in the same engagement as Germans and Italians would fly missions together. In short, not all men's opinions are created equal.
Another quote from Beurling from Malta Spitfire, a book co-authored by Beurling and Leslie Roberts.
"The Jerries are probably better over-all pilots than the Italians, but they certainly let the Eyeties do their fighting for them when the going got tough. When we get around to adding the final score for this show I hope somebody thinks of that".
Lastly, I have routinely read comments about Italian cowardice being a recognized attribute of Italian soldiers.
Pointing out that what one person says is just "one man's opinion" is generally designed to invalidate the matter asserted as all men have opinions and opinions, as you know, are like arseholes.
George Buerling's opinion is a single man's opinion but an opinion based on first hand air to air combat by "The Falcon of Malta," the most successful Canadian fighter pilot in WWII who faced off against Germans and Italians, often in the same engagement as Germans and Italians would fly missions together. In short, not all men's opinions are created equal.
Another quote from Beurling from Malta Spitfire, a book co-authored by Beurling and Leslie Roberts.
"The Jerries are probably better over-all pilots than the Italians, but they certainly let the Eyeties do their fighting for them when the going got tough. When we get around to adding the final score for this show I hope somebody thinks of that".
Lastly, I have routinely read comments about Italian cowardice being a recognized attribute of Italian soldiers.
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Think what you will, it's your right. The way the quote was interpreted as important truth simply doesn't hold for me. Galland has made a lot of statements, often quoted here and elsewhere, which are highly subjective and questionable and sometimes simply wrong. And please point me to where the Italian pilots were referred to as cowards. I have not seen it here in this forum, let alone in any credible book (or any book for that matter).
parsifal
Colonel
The italians were not cowards, thats insulting and untrue. Nor were they inneffective. Rommels main fighter defences in 1942 were built around the the MC 202 equipped units that followed him into Egypt. There were only ever about 60 of these aircraft, and they were battling allied air forces of more than a 1000 aircraft.
In Russia the Saettas shot down at least 80 Russian aircraft for the loss of 15 aircraft.
The Italian defences at Keren rival any of the epic defences at Cassino by the germans, in terms of courage tenacity and effectiveness. The italian Ariete Division in numerous battles in North Africa was exemplary, particulalry the covering role they adopted during Rommels dash to the wire.
The average Italian resented Mussolnis rush to go to war, and the german betrayals of Italy rapaidly soured all goodwill and co-operation between the Italains and the germans. the cavalier attitude of the germans towards the losses being suffereed by the italian fleet, and ther reluctance to provide adequate fuel for operations, even when critical operations were required (and even though they were short of fuel, they had eneough for these emeergency situations....they just were not co-operating) madde the Italians 9except Mussolini) very reluctant to fight germany's war for them. This is different to being inneffective or lacking courage.
Germany is not without its instances of failure.....during the Operation Saturn (the encirclement of 6th Army) it was the German formations interlaced to "stiffen" the Rumanians that broke first.
In Russia the Saettas shot down at least 80 Russian aircraft for the loss of 15 aircraft.
The Italian defences at Keren rival any of the epic defences at Cassino by the germans, in terms of courage tenacity and effectiveness. The italian Ariete Division in numerous battles in North Africa was exemplary, particulalry the covering role they adopted during Rommels dash to the wire.
The average Italian resented Mussolnis rush to go to war, and the german betrayals of Italy rapaidly soured all goodwill and co-operation between the Italains and the germans. the cavalier attitude of the germans towards the losses being suffereed by the italian fleet, and ther reluctance to provide adequate fuel for operations, even when critical operations were required (and even though they were short of fuel, they had eneough for these emeergency situations....they just were not co-operating) madde the Italians 9except Mussolini) very reluctant to fight germany's war for them. This is different to being inneffective or lacking courage.
Germany is not without its instances of failure.....during the Operation Saturn (the encirclement of 6th Army) it was the German formations interlaced to "stiffen" the Rumanians that broke first.
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
I might be oversimplificating things here, but the lack on aircraft cannon and reliable single engine radio equipment was in my humble opinion the doom for the Regia Aeronautica.
"Galland has made a lot of statements, often quoted here and elsewhere, which are highly subjective and questionable and sometimes simply wrong."
And for me, in the absence of factual inconsistencies or untruthful statements coming to light, a Galland or Beurling is entitled to a presumption of validity/reliability not to be accorded to the run of the mill "just one man" who, like every other, has an opinion.
"And please point me to where the Italian pilots were referred to as cowards."
Not pilots per se but soldiers or fighting men in general. It is so widely held that it has become the subject of cultural humor by Germans, Brits and Americans. I have been a member here on this forum a bit longer than you and have seen it more than once. I am not going to go looking for examples for you. As you aptly stated, "Think what you will, it's your right." Like you, I also am not aware of any such critique in a credible book.
I would add that the French are also the butt of such ideas.
And for me, in the absence of factual inconsistencies or untruthful statements coming to light, a Galland or Beurling is entitled to a presumption of validity/reliability not to be accorded to the run of the mill "just one man" who, like every other, has an opinion.
"And please point me to where the Italian pilots were referred to as cowards."
Not pilots per se but soldiers or fighting men in general. It is so widely held that it has become the subject of cultural humor by Germans, Brits and Americans. I have been a member here on this forum a bit longer than you and have seen it more than once. I am not going to go looking for examples for you. As you aptly stated, "Think what you will, it's your right." Like you, I also am not aware of any such critique in a credible book.
I would add that the French are also the butt of such ideas.
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You will see a lot of this here in this forum, but I think that the majority (honestly) is nothing more than an attempt at humor. I think than any serious historian (whether it is a hobby historian like the majority of us or a proffesional) knows that the French (and even the Italians) fought couragiously like any other soldier or army.
- Thread starter
- #38
Saetta66
Airman
I'll do my best to make it stay this way.
I am sure no one will come here to offend other members or nations.
Maybe there will be different points of views, but that's the essence of democracy.
So any opinion is welcome, even if different from mine.
If somebody has a valid support for his ideas, any idea is welcome here.
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Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Seeing as how its been brought up, MY opinion (and thats all it is) was that the RA were better pilots than the French - in general. Several books I have read give the impression that the Italian soldiers were the ones that had no fightring ability especially in 1940. But I have never read where they were considered cowards.
Shortround6
Major General
maybe the Italian soldiers were smarter than some others
Given mediocre weapons at best and not enough of them, poorly supplied and poorly lead (at times from the rear) is it any wonder that even brave men might loose heart or wonder what they were sacrificing themselves for?
Some units did fight well but with tales of multiple trucks being used to transport the commanders wine celler while the troops walked and ate poor rations it is little wonder that some units did not.
