This day in the war in Europe 65 years ago (1 Viewer)

[Njaco]

GERMANY: Dönitz sacks Himmler from all offices.

WESTERN FRONT: The US 97th Division, part of US 5th Corps of the US 3rd Army, occupies Pilsen in Czechoslovakia. The US 12th Corps advances toward Prague but the army is ordered to halt the advance and allow Soviets to occupy the rest of the country as has been arranged.

Nazis in Denmark surrender to Canadian Flying Officer Bob MacDougall, a Halifax bomber tail gunner who had been shot down April 26, and held as a prisoner of war.

Dr. Hans Thomsen, German Minister to Sweden, signs capitulation of about 350,000 German troops in Oslo, Norway.

The Hopseidet Incident: On the 6th, between two and three o'clock, the Germans went ashore, and fire was opened from the defenders. After some heavy fire from machineguns the defenders were forced to retire. Only one man stayed behind on the beach; the "Bergen-man" Henry Mohr was hiding behind some big rocks while he was responding the fire with his light arms. When he finally ran out of ammo, he stretched his arms up and surrendered. He was badly mistreated by the Germans, but for some reason not shot. Together with the "guide" Ivar ÿye was taken aboard the sub. The Germans concentrated their energy elsewhere; all livestock they could find was gathered and shot. All the buildings who was in such a state that people could take shelter or live in, were blown up . The Germans were leading six fishermen, who were taken prisoner as they were trying to make it for the mountains, towards the only building left in the village, a warehouse. The fishermen were lined up with their hands above their heads, and three Germans lined themselves up against them with their weapons ready. The victims were screaming. An officer then gave them coup de grace with his bayonet. After this the Germans went back to the beach. The loudspeakers on the subs played march-music, and a voice declared that Hopseidet was taken without German casualties, and that six enemies were fallen. The soldiers embarked the subs, and accompanied by loud music they left and were soon out of sight. At 5 o'clock the following day Norwegian troops arrived at Hopseidet only to find that six innocent civilians lives were lost. Half an hour later the Germans in Norway surrenders, Hopseidet became the last German military action in Norway. Both U-boat captains were tried after the War, but were found not guilty as the crimes committed were not committed by the U-boat crews.

Destroyer escort USS 'Atherton', while en route from New York to Boston, encountered a U-boat. After four depth charge attacks, pieces of broken wood, cork, mattresses, and an oil slick broke the surface. 'Atherton', in conjunction with frigate USS 'Moberly', was later credited with destroying 'U-853'.

'U-881' sunk in the North Atlantic SE of Newfoundland, in position 43.18N, 47.44W, by depth charges from destroyer escort USS 'Farquhar'. 53 dead (all hands lost).

'U-1008' sunk in the Kattegat north of Hjelm Island, in position 56.14N, 10.51E, by depth charges from an RAF 86 Sqn Liberator. 44 survivors (No casualties)

'U-3523' sunk at 1839hrs in the Skaggerak east of Århus, Denmark, in position 57.52N, 10.49E, by depth charges from an RAF 86 Sqn Liberator. 58 dead (all hands lost).

(US Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown. Mission 981: 383 B-17s are dispatched to drop food at Schipol (249) and Alkmaar (18 ) Airfields, E of Vogelenzang (37), W of Utrecht (59), and N of Hilversum (18 ), the Netherlands; a total of 693.3 tons of food are dropped. Mission 982: 15 B-17s, escorted by 8 of 26 P-51s, drop leaflets in France and Germany during the day. Mission 983: 10 B-24s drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands and Channel Islands during the night of 6/7 May.

(US Ninth Air Force): No operations by the 9th Bombardment Division and the IX and XIX Tactical Air Commands. The XXIX Tactical Air Command (Provisional) flies a demonstration mission in the Klotze, Germany area.

EASTERN FRONT: After an 82-day siege, the remaining defenders of Breslau finally surrender to Soviet forces. Pilsen is liberated by the US 3rd Army, but is ordered to stay there to allow the Russians to occupy the rest of the country.

The Second White Russian Army capture Rügen Island, the German island seaplane base in the Baltic. 4660 Germans are taken prisoner.

Prague: The 1st Division of the POA join the fight with the Czech patriots against the remaining German SS units. By the evening the city is clear of SS.

MEDITERRANEAN: American soldiers of the 85th Infantry Division of the US Ninth Army capture a resort hotel near Dobbiaca, Italy, near the Austrian border. The 150-man German garrison surrenders with little fight. Inside are 133 political hostages, intended to be executed if the hotel was captured. Included are former French Premier Léon Blum, Austrian Chancellor Kurt Schuschnigg, former Hungarian Premier Nicholas von Kallay, former Chief of German General Staff Franz Halder, and Alex von Stauffenberg. Schuschnigg had been held for seven years.

(US Fifteenth Air Force): 9 P-38s escort RAF Balkan AF supply-dropping missions to Yugoslavia.

(US Twelfth Air Force): Brigadier General Robert S Israel, Jr takes command of the XXII Tactical Air Command. Fighters fly reconnaissance over the French and Italian Alps.

 

[Njaco]

GERMANY: This day marks the end of hostilities between the Wehrmacht and the Allied armies in Europe. At 2:41 a.m. CET, Generaloberst Jodl signs the instrument of unconditional surrender of all German forces in a schoolroom at Rheims, France, to be effective at noon the following day. Jodl said that the German people and the German armed forces had "achieved and suffered more than perhaps any other people in the world. I can only express my hope that the victor will treat them with generosity." The cease-fire covers the Soviet front as well as western Europe and comes into effect at 2301 hours tomorrow. It was witnessed by General Bedell Smith for Eisenhower's Allied Command, General Suslaparov for the USSR and General Sevez for France.

'Kommando Welter', also known as 10./NJG 11, after spending the last few weeks based on the Autobahn outside of Hamburg moves to the airfield at Schleswig-Jagel to await Allied occupation forces. Full staffel strength is four single seat Me 262s and two radar equipped two seaters. As they wait, one pilot, Herbert Altner, deciding to surrender in better conditions, grabs a bicycle and pedals home.

German 7. Jagddivision reports that JV 44 had been taken 'prisoner'. II./JG 7 is reported to be at Gettorf 'minus aircraft'.

Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' was formally deactivated east of Munich by it's last Geschwaderkommodore Kurt Buhligen.

The US 97th Infantry Division is credited with firing the last official shot in the European Theatre of Operations by US troops tonight when, near Klenovice in the Pilsen area, Private First Class Domenic Mozzetta Company B, 387 Regiment, fires at a German sniper near Klenovice shortly before midnight.

On a dirt road some 12 kilometres into Czechoslovakia, a reconnaissance platoon of the US Army's 803rd Tank Destroyer Battalion, Company C, is blindsided by a hail of enemy machine gun and small arms fire from concealed positions in the woods. Soldiers from the German 11th Panzer Division fire off four rounds of panzerfausts, which explode around the lead American vehicle, an M-8 armoured car. The American GIs in the second vehicle, an open jeep, get the worst of it: Two take hits to the hands and face: Pfc Charley Havlat is killed. Pfc Charles Havlat, was the last American GI killed in action on the 5th Division front, and is officially the last American KIA in the entire European Theatre. He was 34 years old. The re-con men of the 803rd returned fire until their radio operator received word that, some nine minutes before the ambush, a cease-fire order had gone into effect, and an armistice was in effect. The company got orders to withdraw back into the town of Wallern, now known as Volary. Less than six hours after the attack, Nazi Germany surrendered unconditionally. Taken captive later, the German officer who led the ambush said he knew nothing of the cessation of hostilities until 30 minutes after their effective time and apologised for the incident.

WESTERN FRONT: Canadian freighter SS 'Avondale Park' torpedoed and sunk in the Firth of Forth in position 56.10N, 002.32W, by 'U-2336', Kptlt Emil Klusmeier, CO. 'Avondale Park' was Canadian-owned but British-manned merchantman and was the last British ship to be sunk during WW.II. The ship was part of Convoy EN-91 bound for Belfast and was two miles south-east of May Island, in the Firth of Forth, when she was torpedoed at 2240. The ship sank in ten minutes. Two members of her crew of 41 men were lost. The coaster 'Sneland' was also sunk in this attack.

The 196th and final U-boat sunk by Coastal Command (U-320) is destroyed by a Consolidated Catalina of No. 210 Squadron 120 miles north-east of Sullom Voe.

At 2145, KNM NYMS-382 was hit by a Gnat from 'U-1023' and sank within two minutes off Lyme Bay. The commander and 21 crewmembers were lost. Ten injured survivors were picked up by KNM NYMS-379 and NYMS-381 of the 3rd Minesweeping Unit stationed in Cherbourg, to which the minesweeper also belonged.

(US Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown. Mission 984: 231 B-17s are dispatched to drop food supplies at Schipol (154) and Alkmaar (10) Airfields, Vogelenzang (25), W of Utrecht (28) and N of Hilversum (12), the Netherlands; a total of 426 tons of food are dropped. Mission 985: 15 B-17s, with 30 of 32 P-51s escorting, drop leaflets in Germany during the day.

(US Ninth Air Force): The XIX Tactical Air Command flies sweeps over E Germany and W Czechoslovakia and carries out demonstration flights over prisoner of war (POW) camps. The 586th and 587th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 394th Bombardment Group (Medium), move from Niergnies Airfield, Cambrai, France to Venlo, the Netherlands with B-26s.

ENGLAND: An order for another 300 de Havilland Vampire jet fighters is placed with English Electric at Preston, Lancashire.

EASTERN FRONT: Soviet troops of the 1st Belorussian Front reach the Elbe river north and southeast of Magdeburg. In Czechoslovakia, fighting continues north of Olmutz and in the town itself. On the Frische Nehring, in East Prussia, the remaining German forces continue to hold out near the village of Vogelsang.

General Bunyachenko of the 1st Division POA is informed that Prague is to be occupied by the Soviets. The incoming pro-Soviet government of Eduard Benes demands their surrender or abandonment of Prague.

MEDITERRANEAN: (US Fifteenth Air Force): 13 P-51s escort 3 RAF Balkan AF supply dropping missions to Yugoslavia.

(US Twelfth Air Force): P-47s fly reconnaissance over the Austrian Alps. HQ 57th Fighter Group and the 65th Fighter Squadron move from Verona to Grosseto, Italy with P-47s.

 

[Njaco]

GERMANY: VE-DAY (Victory-in-Europe Day), Offensive Operations end at 2301. - In deference to the Soviet victors, the surrender ceremony at Rheims of the previous day is repeated before Marshall Zhukov and other Soviet generals at Karlshorst, a suburb of Berlin. The German surrender is ratified. For Germany, Keitel, Freideburg and Stumpf sign, and for the Allies, Spaatz, Tedder, Zhukov and de Lattre. Hostilities officially end at one minute past midnight. Allied troops, fully supported by Bomber Command, had liberated the whole of Western Europe in just eleven months of hard fighting. The British Army lost nearly 40,000 men during this campaign. Bomber Command had lost 2,128 aircraft during the same period, with approximately 10,000 airmen being killed. Many of the bomber squadrons were now earmarked for Tiger Force, to continue the war against Japan, but the dropping of two atom bombs three months later brought the surrender of Japan and the end of the Second World War before Tiger Force left England. American and British planes have dropped 2,453,595 tons of explosives on German targets since the start of the war. Losses of aircraft have been 40,822 German, 26,715 American and British.

US troops arrest Göring, who assumes that he will be taken to Eisenhower to negotiate a truce.

Near the the Obersalzburg, Germany, Colonel "Bob" Sink, CO of the US Army's 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, ("Curahee") 101st Airborne 'Screaming Eagles' Division, accepts the surrender of the German LXXXII Corps, commanded by Lt General Theodor Tolsdorf.

U-1109, U-2502, U-2506, U-2513, U-3008 of the 11th Flotilla surrendered at Horten.

Test pilot Hauptman Heinz Braur flies 70 women, children and wounded troops to Munich-Reim airport . After he lands, Brauer is approached by one of Colonel Harold E. Watson's Whizzers intelligence team who give him the choice of either going to a prison camp or flying with the Whizzers. Braur thinks flying is more preferable. Three Messerschmitt employees also joined the Whizzers: Karl Baur, the Chief Test Pilot of Experimental Aircraft, test pilot Ludwig "Willie" Huffman, and engineering superintendent Gerhard Coulis. Test pilot Herman Kersting joined later. When the Whizzers located nine Me 262 jet aircraft at Lechfeld airfield, these German test pilots had the expertise to fly them.

With only a few flyable aircraft left, the Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 52, Major Erich Hartmann, flies one last mission and scores his last kill of the war bringing his total to 352 aerial victories. On returning to the airfield he finds it under attack by Soviet forces. Gathering all personnel and their families, he orders the entire Gruppe to march toward the American lines. At 1300 hours the Gruppe surrenders to the 90th United States Infantry Division at the town of Pisek in Czechoslovakia. The war is over.

In what is believed to be the last jet sortie of the war, the acting Gruppenkommanduer of I./JG 7, Oblt. Fritz Stelle, shot down a Yak-9 over Czechoslovakia whilst flying one of the last airworthy Me 262s of the composite battle command Gerfechtsverband Hogeback. Stelle then made his way to Fassberg to surrender.

(US Eighth Air Force): Mission 986: 12 B-17s drop leaflets in Germany during the day.

HQ 324th Fighter Group moves form Luneville, France to Stuttgart, Germany.

(US Ninth Air Force): The IX and XIX Tactical Air Commands patrol the Leipzig, Chemnitz, and Adorf, Germany and Linz, Austria areas, and fly sweeps and demonstration missions. Unit moves in Germany: HQ 405th Fighter Group and 509th Fighter Squadron from Kitzingen to Straubing with P-47s; 455th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 323d Bombardment Group (Medium), from Prouvy Airfield, Leon, France to Gablingen with B-26s.

EASTERN FRONT: The Red Army occupies Dresden. Russian soldiers of the 1st Division POA start to retreat back to the German border.

The units of Army Group Kurland, long cut off in Latvia, surrender to Soviet forces. Most of the German pockets, which have been holding out in eastern Germany, have also given in.

The last convoys of German refugees from the East arrive in western Baltic ports, ending the largest rescue operation by sea in history. Since January 25, a total of 420,000 civilians and wounded soldiers have been evacuated - besides the U-boat campaign, it is the Kriegsmarine's most memorable feat of WWII. The remnants of AOK Ostpreussen have held their positions in the Vistula delta and the Frische Nehrung to the last. In recognition of their valor, their commander, General der Panzertruppen von Saucken, is awarded the Diamonds to the Knight's Cross by Grossadmiral Dönitz.

In the morning, 35 Ju 52 transport aircraft flew from Norway into the Kurland pocket and landed at Grobin, directly east of Libau. It was the last intact German airfield. In exemplary fashion, they took the wounded and fathers of families on board for transport to the Reich. They were attacked by Russian fighters and ground-attack aircraft over the Baltic Sea. Almost all of them went down, burning and trailing heavy plumes of smoke, in an hour of increasing attack by more than 100 Russian fighters and IL-2 ground-attack aircraft. None of those aircraft could be saved. Only two of the Ju 52s were able to sneak through at extremely low altitude, only about 20 meters above the water. The local fighter unit meant to cover the transports, JG 54 couldn't help as it was already ordered to fly to Kiel in the early morning.

The US announces that the US 7th Army near Strobl, east of Salzburg, has liberated Belgian King Leopold III and family and staff. In Berchtesgaden, Germany, the German 82nd corps of about 3300 troops surrenders to the US 101st Airborne Division.

ENGLAND: London: "The German war is at an end. Advance Britannia! Long live the cause of freedom! God save the King!" The great crowds waiting all day in the streets of London fell totally silent to hear those word broadcast by Mr. Churchill from 10 Downing Street at 3pm. The official announcement has been a long time coming, but they knew that the war was over. In this morning's Daily Mirror strip cartoon, the scantily-clad "Jane" has disrobed completely, as she had always promised to do for peace. When at last the end was official, pent-up feelings broke loose. People waved flags, blew whistles, climbed the lampposts, sang and danced in the streets. Above all they massed in front of Buckingham Palace, chanting "We want the King!" He soon appeared bareheaded on the balcony with his wife and daughters, a simple family group waving back to them as they sang "For he's a jolly good fellow and so say all of us". It was the first of eight appearances which the royal family made, up till midnight. Meanwhile, Mr. Churchill had gone to read his statement to the House of Commons: "Finally almost the whole world was combined against the evil-doers who are now prostrate before us ... but let us not forget that Japan, with all her treachery and greed, remains unsubdued and her detestable cruelties call for justice and retribution." Later Mr. Churchill appeared on the Palace balcony with the king and queen and then on a balcony above the sea of faces in Whitehall. He waved his hat and joined in singing "Land of Hope and Glory". "This is your victory," he told them. "In all our long history we have never seen a greater day than this." Tonight, floodlights and bonfires light up the capital and searchlight beams dance in the sky to the sound of ships' sirens sounding the V sign.

UNITED STATES: Washington: President Truman warns the US that the war is only half won.

WESTERN FRONT: VE Day is celebrated in Paris with fireworks and extra rations of wine.

CANADA: The Canadian navy ceases fighting German forces. In the city of Halifax, Nova Scotia, VE Day celebrations turn into a riot as Canadian sailors loot shops.

NORWAY: Eleven Allied officers arrive at Oslo with Norwegian troops and Crown Prince Olav to liberate Norway.

MEDITERRANEAN: German forces in the Dodecanese Islands surrender to the British on Symi Island, effective 1300 hours Greenwich time.

All Fifteenth AF aircraft stand down on V-E Day and offensive operations end. Subsequent operations involve transport, supply, training, and movement flights.

(US Twelfth Air Force): Transports carry out evacuation and supply missions in S Europe. The 64th and 66th Fighter Squadrons, 57th Fighter Group, move from Villafranca di Verona to Grosseto, Italy with P-47s.

THE PACIFIC: Every shore and ship battery of the US at Okinawa, Japan, fires one shell on a Japanese target, indicating German surrender, that Japan now stands alone.

 

[RabidAlien]

 

[Gnomey]

A momentous day.

Many thanks for keeping this thread going.

 

[Njaco]

German forces in Kurland, the Greek islands and the still undefeated garrisons of St. Nazaire, La Rochelle, Lorient, La Pallice and the British Channel Islands surrender. The last Wehrmacht soldiers to surrender were a small company on the tiny Channel Island of Minquiers and a group of eleven soldiers on the island of Spitzbergen. A French fishing boat, skippered by Lucian Marie, approached the island of Minquiers and anchored nearby. A fully armed German soldier approached and asked for help saying 'We've been forgotten by the British, perhaps no one on Jersey told them we were here, I want you to take us over to England, we want to surrender'. This was on the 23rd of May, 1945, three weeks after the war ended! Under German occupation since June 30, 1940, the German garrison surrendered the Channel Islands on May 9. This was the only British home territory occupied by the enemy. On a tiny outpost of Hitler's Third Reich, eleven German soldiers and naval marines maintained a top secret weather monitoring station on an isolated part of the east island of Spitzbergen, code name, 'Operation Haudegen'. Although they were told that the war had ended on September 4, 1945, nothing was done to fetch them back. They survived on canned food and by shooting polar bears until their distress calls were picked up by the Norwegians. A seal-hunting ship was sent to their rescue. It arrived on September 4 and its captain accepted their surrender, four months after the war had ended!.

The repatriation of Italian POW's from Russia took place between September 1945 and March 1946. A total of 10,087 were released from the Soviet camps where many had died. Twenty-eight of the prisoners were considered 'Fascist War Criminals' by the Soviets and unjustly accused of the most horrendous crimes. They were detained for a further twelve years and only after the death of Stalin in 1954 were they released. One prisoner, Father Giovanni Brevi, kept a diary in which he listed all the names of prisoners who died in the camp. Alongside each name he added the cause of death; starvation, torture and shooting etc.

From 1941 to 1945, a total of 17,955,000 Americans were medically examined for induction into the armed forces. Some 6,420,000 (35.8 percent) were rejected as unfit because of some physical disability. Altogether, 16,112,566 Americans served their country in World War 11. A total of 38.8 percent (6,332,000) were volunteers. In all, 405,399 American service men and women gave up their lives in a war that cost the US $288 Billion Dollars.

Just before Christmas, 1946, the ban on fraternization between German Prisoners of War and British civilians was finally lifted. Invitations poured into P.O.W. camps in Britain from British families eager to invite the POWs into their homes for Christmas, the first real Christmas the prisoners had experienced in years. The last of German POWs were repatriated by the end of 1948 but around 24,000 decided to stay in Britain rather than return to their homes now in the communist zone of East Germany. Many of those who stayed behind ended up marrying British girls and raising families.

The Nürnberg International Military Tribunal began on November 20, 1945. It was conducted in four languages, English. French, Russian and German. The trials lasted ten months in which it held a total of 403 sessions. Twenty surviving leaders of the Third Reich were arraigned before the Allied judges as major war criminals. All pleaded 'Not Guilty'. Ten were hanged on 16th October, 1946, seven were given prison sentences and three were acquitted. Two, Herman Göring and Robert Ley committed suicide during the trial. (It is doubtful that Goring would have taken his own life if the Tribunal had granted him his most cherished wish, to die like a soldier in front of a firing squad) Thirty-three witnesses gave oral evidence for the prosecution against the defendants and sixty-one witnesses gave evidence for the defence. Written evidence was given by 143 witnesses for the defence. A total of 1,809 affidavits from other witnesses were also submitted. Everything said at the trial was stenographically and electrically recorded. The United Nations War Crimes Commission was established in London on October 7, 1942, with the support of seventeen other Allied governments. On August 8, 1945, Britain, America, France and Russia signed the London Agreement setting up the N.I.M.T. to bring the top leaders of Hitler's Germany to trial.
The evidence against the defendants were, in most cases, documents of their own making on which their own signatures were proved authentic. Some historians believe that the hanging of General Jodl was a miscarriage of justice but by signing Hitler's order to have fifty prisoners of war shot for escaping from Sagan, sealed his fate

By the end of the war in Europe, British civilian deaths due to enemy action total 60,595. British-American forces lost 18,000 aircraft and 81,000 aircrew dead. The German Luftwaffe lost 62,500-100,000 aircraft and 70,000 aircrew dead or missing. During the war, German submarines sunk 2603 merchant ships and 175 warships, killing 50,000 victims. Germany lost 690 submarines and 32,000 crewmen killed or taken prisoner. Total Canadian soldiers killed in European fighting: 42,042. In 1418 days of military operations, 20-26 million Soviets were killed, with another 40 million wounded, leaving 25 million homeless. On the German-Russian front, 10 million German troops were killed or wounded. Destruction to the Soviet Union: 70,000 villages, 1700 cities and towns, 84,000 schools, 40,000 hospitals, 43,000 libraries, 32,000 factories, 400 museums, 40,000 miles of railway, and 45 million horses, cattle, and pigs.

 

[syscom3]

Because this thread has been strictly a chronological account of the war, from when the US entered it; its been discouraged to add pictures.

But I think its only fitting that we can all celebrate the end by posting some pictures taken from around the world on "V-E Day".

Note - I will take up this thread from NJACO to list any important events in Europe as they happen untill V-J day.

 

[Bug_racer]

Just out of principle, Truman and Churchill should have ordered the occupation of Portugal for "de-nazification".

I really dont understand why . As much as so many people on this forum hate the Nazi and there regime I still dont believe it to be the great evil as so many people from the era make it out to be . My grandfather was a boy growing up in Germany at the time and he remember the fun times he had on camps with other boys of the hitler youth . Learning all about the military hardware and meeting famous soldiers of the reich . When your a teenager growing up all of these things are exciting and will be with you forever . The Nuremburg rallies , the olympics even Albert Speers architecture were a marvel of what Nazism could do . Hilter followed glorification of Germany in the same way as Romans did . I dont remember Rome being called an evil empire , yet what they did was probably just as cruel although not on the same scale as the Germans . If this website truly is non political then there should not be any bias against or towards any of the nations in the war . We all know Germany had done some cruel acts in the war , but no single country is innocent , no single man can say they dont have blood stained hands . I myself will respect all nations and peoples and know that what they did was the best for their country at the time .

FYI and a bit of irony - My great grandfather was killed by Soviet troops in 1939 when they invaded Poland . He also fought for the Russian in the 1904-05 Russo-Jap war .

And Im also not a Nazi or Neo-Nazi . I will just speak for the many Wermacht soldiers and soldiers of the Hitler youth who fought and died and never seem to be remembered because the empire they fought for was considered evil !

 

[syscom3]

"I still dont believe it to be the great evil as so many people from the era make it out to be"

That speaks volumes about you.

 

[Bug_racer]

"I still dont believe it to be the great evil as so many people from the era make it out to be"

That speaks volumes about you.

Every empire has some kind of evil in it . Then again what is really considered evil to you may be different for others . For example , there are certain tribes that use to (dont know if they still do) , eat other humans . This for them is considered normal , for us it is not . We can call them evil for doing so without understanding that its the way of life they have lived for many generations .


Hitlers decisions were based upon what he had seen in his life and what he believed was right and what was wrong . You and me both have the benefit of hindsight and can see all his mistakes . He did not have this luxury , just whatever he could see around him . How do you know in 65 years time people will look back at the US and say they were evil for invading Iraq and Afghanistan ? Or the US was evil for trading with China , a communist country it fought against in Korea 50 odd years ago ? You just dont know , all you know is that people make decision based upon the information they have at the time and do what they believe is right .

 

[Marcel]

We all know Germany had done some cruel acts in the war , but no single country is innocent , no single man can say they dont have blood stained hands .

Absolutely true, and fully agreed. All countries did things they rather not remember during the war.

I really dont understand why . As much as so many people on this forum hate the Nazi and there regime I still dont believe it to be the great evil as so many people from the era make it out to be .

Here I disagree. Maybe it's different when your family was on the recieving end of NAZI policy. The fact that some people had a marvalous time with the Hitler-jugend don't make it a good organisation as many Jews learned. The SA was probably also a nice drinking-club, but here again, most Jews, gypsies, and other Europeans will disagree.

I think you can say without bias that NAZI-rule was evil, just like Stalinism and colonialism was. They had illogical, ideals, based on wrong assumptions, for which millions payed with their lives. The fact that there were others that were as evil doesn't take away the fact that NAZISM was evil.

From my point of view, I cannot believe there are still people claiming that NAZISM was NOT evil, even after learning all the facts.

Hitlers decisions were based upon what he had seen in his life and what he believed was right and what was wrong . You and me both have the benefit of hindsight and can see all his mistakes . He did not have this luxury , just whatever he could see around him . How do you know in 65 years time people will look back at the US and say they were evil for invading Iraq and Afghanistan ? Or the US was evil for trading with China , a communist country it fought against in Korea 50 odd years ago ? You just dont know , all you know is that people make decision based upon the information they have at the time and do what they believe is right .

Why then were there so many people who did see it totally the other way? It's quite a lame excuse for the killing of 6 million women and children from a special population. You cannot prove me that Hitler would do it any other way if he had the same hindsight as we have today. You'll have to do better than that.

 

[Njaco]

Bug-Racer, first I want to say that your comments are totally outside the scope and purpose of this thread.

Second, this is a non-political forum in that we do not hold political discussions. But everyone is welcome to an opinion.

Third, we will not allow ANY disparaging of someone's country, any country. Political regimes are different from the people.

Fourth, the world was aware of what Hitler was doing even during the war, they just didn't realize the scope of it.

And last there is no way you can compare or accept the attrocities of the National Socialists under Hitler with any other political regime during that time period. It was an evil regime, plain and simple and I don't see any negative in stating that fact. There is far too much liberal revisionist mindset when it comes to history that distorts the facts and denies the truth.

Other than Syscom posting anything else in HIS thread, I won't allow any more discussion from anyone here about it. This is not the thread for it.

 

[Bug_racer]

Here I disagree. Maybe it's different when your family was on the recieving end of NAZI policy. The fact that some people had a marvalous time with the Hitler-jugend don't make it a good organisation as many Jews learned. The SA was probably also a nice drinking-club, but here again, most Jews, gypsies, and other Europeans will disagree.

I think you can say without bias that NAZI-rule was evil, just like Stalinism and colonialism was. They had illogical, ideals, based on wrong assumptions, for which millions payed with their lives. The fact that there were others that were as evil doesn't take away the fact that NAZISM was evil.

From my point of view, I cannot believe there are still people claiming that NAZISM was NOT evil, even after learning all the facts.


Why then were there so many people who did see it totally the other way? It's quite a lame excuse for the killing of 6 million women and children from a special population. You cannot prove me that Hitler would do it any other way if he had the same hindsight as we have today. You'll have to do better than that.

Yes , some of the things that were done under Nazi rule were evil , probably the most evil the world has known . But , everything I hear implies that all people in Germany between 1933-1945 were Nazi's and they all had a part in killing the 6 million people . All I am saying is that despite some evil goings on in the regime there was still a lot of mateship / comradary etc that was going on . The Hitler youth brought together a whole generation of kids to be fit and healthy , which is more than what I can say about USA's obesity epidemic .

Nazism was evil , then again so is communism , fascism , democracy (Im sure a lot of muslims will agree here) , etc etc . Each political group has its own strengths and weaknesses and each will work for a given group of people .

Hitler had reason to kill , it may be right , it may be wrong , thats a discussion for another day . What Im saying is that thats all most people know the Nazi's for , the killing . Im sure Albert Speer wasnt designing massive concentration camps for the greater Germany . Im sure Werner Von Braun was building rockets to go to the moon . As evil as the empire was , I beleive its goals for humanity exceeded many others , its just they were dwarfed by the level they murdered a lot of innocent people .

And as for hindsight , who knows , if Hitler knew he was going to loose the war he may have started using Gas ? Who knows , maybe he might have stopped the whole concentration camp effort and concentrate on building armaments instead . Im pretty sure running the concentration camps was a wasted resource that could have been used elswhere

Bug-Racer, first I want to say that your comments are totally outside the scope and purpose of this thread.

Second, this is a non-political forum in that we do not hold political discussions. But everyone is welcome to an opinion.

Third, we will not allow ANY disparaging of someone's country, any country. Political regimes are different from the people.

Fourth, the world was aware of what Hitler was doing even during the war, they just didn't realize the scope of it.

And last there is no way you can compare or accept the attrocities of the National Socialists under Hitler with any other political regime during that time period. It was an evil regime, plain and simple and I don't see any negative in stating that fact. There is far too much liberal revisionist mindset when it comes to history that distorts the facts and denies the truth.

Other than Syscom posting anything else in HIS thread, I won't allow any more discussion from anyone here about it. This is not the thread for it.

Yes they are . Im just jack of people being so critical of the German empire in WW2 .

I dont intend to bring politics into it . If I was I think you would all think Im mad !

Political regimes may be different from people , but its the people who are there at the time who are seen as the political regime whether they like it or not . Seperating a German citizen is the start but there is a lot more to it than just that .

The world also saw the level of which Germany could rise from its suppression after WW1 . I think it would be easily said Hitler was evil , but how easy would it have been to prove it without actually going into Germany itself ?

You point the finger and say the whole regime was evil . This is where I will disagree . Im happy to point the finger at the USA and say its current regime is evil too . Maybe not to the same degree as the Nazis but it still has its elements . Have you had a good look at the Soviet and Japanese regimes during the same period ? They dont seem much different to me in their mindset . Or do you look at how evil a regime is with body count ? Liberal revisionist ? Ummm ok , if it was so evil and created so many attrocities why did the Germans fight as hard as what they did throught the war ? You can not tell me that life under Hitler as an ordinary German citizen was that bad . You compare the standard of living in 1930 to 1940 and tell me how much hope it gave the people .

Happy to start a new thread . I just thought its the end of the war in Europe and it will be a good time to reflect on everything thats happened . The Good , the bad , the evil , the couragous and the memorable .

 

[Njaco]

I think the point you seem to miss is that Syscom was commenting on Portugal's response to Hitler's demise. Not Germany's.

Lets leave it at that.

 

[Bug_racer]

I think the point you seem to miss is that Syscom was commenting on Portugal's response to Hitler's demise. Not Germany's.

Lets leave it at that.

Sorry I got carried away

 

[syscom3]

May 10th 1945

NORWAY: Quisling and some supporters are arrested by resistance in Norway. They will be held until trial and execution.
Reich Commissar Terboven and the German Chief of Police in Norway commits suicide.

 

[syscom3]

Syria: Damascus: Fresh violence in the Middle East seems likely in the wake of decisions today by Syria and Lebanon to break off negotiations with France. Arab nationalists are attempting to assert their claims for independence, but France has so far seemed to determined to maintain its hold on the Levant through indirect rule. In 1941, when the Free French liberated Syria and Lebanon from Vichy, they offered independence. Since then limited self-government, with France controlling defence and external affairs, has been permitted, but attempts to attain full independence have been countered by French imperial troops.

Germany: Belsen: By order of the British, the last remaining hut of the concentration camp is burnt to the ground.

Goering is transferred from Augsburg PoW camp to the Palace Hotel at Mondorf, where he joins over senior Nazis awaiting interrogation.

Great Britain: Blackpool: The Labour Party votes to withdraw its support from the coalition government.

 

[syscom3]

UNITED KINGDOM: British PM Churchill forms a caretaker government to serve until the elections. This action is due to the withdrawal of the Labour Party from the coalition government.

GERMANY: Heinrich Himmler is captured by the British and commits suicide between being searched and his first questioning.

The German government and High Command, headed by Grossadmiral Karl Doenitz and nominated by Adolf Hitler in his last will, is arrested by the British at Flensburg near the Danish border. The Allies originally
feared that without a German government acting as the central authority the Wehrmacht units would not surrender smoothly. By this day the German surrender is effectively finished, and there's no need for Doenitz's
government.

 

[syscom3]

June 5th 1945

GERMANY: The Allied Control Commission meets for the first time in Berlin. This group consists of Russian, British, French and US representatives. It assumes the task of governing Germany.

 

[syscom3]

UNITED KINGDOM: Channel Islands: Captured German howitzers welcomed King George and Queen Elizabeth with a 21-gun salute when they arrived on the liberated island of Guernsey today. Thousands lined the streets and lanes to wave red, white and blue bunting and flowers as the royal couple toured the holiday islands. The king told the States of Jersey (the island's parliament): "After long suffering, I hope the island will regain its former glory."

GERMANY: All German citizens in the zone occupied by the western allies are ordered to watch films of Belsen and Buchenwald.

NORWAY: King Haakon returns aboard HMS Norfolk, to a warm reception. The Norwegian government in exile also returns on RN ships, but are now regarded with disfavour for having spent the war years in relative comfort, away from the inconveniences of the occupation.