UK Teachers to stop teaching the Holocaust...

What????

You could try and be a bit more readable.

I did read it. but I judt don't see how the hell teaching the Holocaust could be offensive to muslims. I mean, 12 million men, women, and children were murdered for who they were. how can schools teaching that be offensive? I really don't get it.

Kruska, I agree with much of what you post and I will admit to having a very limited knowledge of what exactly is going on over there. But this I do know. the jewish race has been thrown about as the scrourge of mankind since the time of Christ. And the Muslim religion gets a pass. Thoughout history it wasn't screaming, cut-throat hordes of jews invading Europe or any civilization at the time. I see that as very unfair especially if we wnat to talk historical aspects.

But if forgo all that, you are so correct about both sides being wrong and wronged. But what side gets the sympathy? While Hamas lobs shells into Israel and Israel respond its images of dead Paletinians that we get on the nightly news, not the dead jews that the palenstinians brought.

But some of your post concerns me.

The US aggression towards Iraq (2nd Gulf war) certainly did not help to ease the tension in the world, neither the muscle play against Iran or vice versa.

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I agree it did not help to ease the tension in the world but what tension would there be in the future if Iran was ignored? When bullies and dictators are ignored atrocities occur and then you have the world asking why nothing was done, where was the US. Its a Catch -22.

Enemy No. 1 is off course the USA

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And why is that? Is it because when things happen in the world, everyone looks to the US. Disasters, genocides, coups, etc - the US will fix all and when we can't, we get the blame "The US is hateful, terrorist, etc" I'm sick of how the world extends one hand to us for help and slaps us in the face with the other. And I'm upset with our politicians who continue to drag us down with these global handshakes and policing.

And forgive me, but I don't know what is wrong with your flag. Is there a problem?

And Plan, you forgot that if they can't send them to Britain they give them sanctuary on the Riveria.

Kruska...Two point you not bring up ... And most do not bring up ...Israel has a time line as long as the Palestinians on that land ..And the Palestinians and the whole of the Arab world do not want a home land for the Palestinians ...They want the Israelis exterminated ...Not a home land ...How was it put by an Arab leader at the start of the Six Day War..."We will push them (Israel) in to the sea"...That statement was made and they still live by it and away will..I see the Israelis working harder at working it out then the Palestinians... The Palestinians want the Israelis gone..

Point two ...Why do some parts of the world think they can reason with the Arab world..???... A lot of Europe seems to feel this way ... And history say other wise...

And why do people pick this up at the 20 year mark ...And not the 1000 years to when it started and deal with all that has happened...Not just the last half hour....???

Palestinian maps to day do NOT even show Isreal as even there..And I "think" that they even show these in there schools to there kids...

Trebor said:

I did read it. but I judt don't see how the hell teaching the Holocaust could be offensive to muslims. I mean, 12 million men, women, and children were murdered for who they were. how can schools teaching that be offensive? I really don't get it.

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That is not what I meant. I meant making your post more readable....

Hello Haztoys, and Njaco

I didn't bring up the time line, because IMO it would be ridiculous / impossible to judge right and wrong based on 2600 years ago.
Before I may carry on please keep in mind that the Jewish kingdom, was never a homogenous Jewish kingdom, but consisted of dozens of tribes, out of which one tribe considered themselves to be the "chosen ones" = the Jews.

The Jewish kingdom Juda was destroyed in 586 B.C. by the Babylonians (Today's Iraq, Syria and partially Iran) most fled to Egypt and many were taken prisoners to the Babylonian empire, where they were resettled into independent villages and were allowed to keep and exercise their religion (this Jewish chapter in history is called the "Diaspora") The Romans who conquered Palestine remembered the Jewish alliance with the former Babylonians, then renamed Parthian (Persia – Iran) against the Romans. The Romans literally got fed up of these "troublemakers" – please refer to Roman history sources on this topic in reference to the (2nd Diaspora) and after the Roman-Jewish war in 70 A.D the second Diaspora took place – the Jews immigrated / fled out of Palestine and the middle east into the Roman Empire (Europe).

Haztoys on your point 1:
I fully agree with you – indeed the Palestinians could have been resettled in any neighboring Arab country.
But please don't forget the following:
Palestinians are not Arabs as such the Arabs wouldn't like them too much. The Palestinians are of the same breed (with all the good and irrational attributes) as the Jews, it is just the religion language (Muslim and Christians) that separates Palestinians from the Jews. The Jews were expelled from Palestine a 2nd time in 70 A.C. the remaining Palestinians (Jews and I don't know how many other tribes) were then conquered around 700 A.D by the Muslims (Main Muslim culture and political center was today's Syria).
Most of the (Leftovers) in Palestine converted to Islam, some stayed Christian (mostly in today's Lebanon) and the Jews mostly stayed Jews.

Reading and analyzing history, IMO the Palestinians (who are the same breed as the Jews) are both natural troublemakers. Wherever the Jews started to accumulate in numbers after the Diaspora they got themselves entangled in political intrigues and started or ignited some kind of revolution, (most prominent in the 19th/20th century – Russia Lenin). Same goes for the Palestinians, after they settled 1948 and were welcomed in Jordan, they tried a revolution and were as such expelled, later they tried the same thing in Lebanon.
In whatever Arab country the Palestinians settle in larger numbers, they are being closely "eyed".

Haztoys on your point 2:
Quote: and history say's otherwise……
There are dozens of occurrences were the Europeans (Christians) have negotiated peace with the Muslims, some treaties were kept others were broken by both sides. The French and Muslims were allies in the 17th century, and in the 19th century the British allied with the Muslims against Russia (Crimean war). The British and the Commonwealth allied together with the Arabs against the Turks and Germany/Austria in WW1.
The Yugoslav Muslims were loyal "butcher comrades" to the SS in WW2. Iran was a "super buddy" to the US and Europe before Islamic fundamentalist took over the former Islamic Iran. Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE (all Arabs and Muslims) are good buddies to the USA.

Due to this European history of entanglement and "joint ventures" with the Arab or Muslim world we (the Europeans) might have a very different viewpoint towards Arabs and Muslims then the USA. Reason being, that the Europeans are also able to distinguish between Islamic fundamentalists and Muslims and also between Muslims and Arabs.

The Turks, Egyptians, Syria, Lebanon, most of Iraq, and Iran are not Arabs they derive from separate old empires with their own indigenous population but share a common faith = Islam (Shiite and Sunni).

Imagine that all European countries would be called "Germanics" just because they look alike and share Christianity (Catholics and Protestants). And due to what the Germans did or the British, the USA would say, all the Germanic Christians are the same.

Njaco:

When Bus bombs or roadside bombs in Israel caused dozens of dead, the international media was full of it, nobody bothered to show dead Palestinians on TV.
Obviously the international press seems to take a different or let's say more neutral standpoint nowadays. IIRC one Israel – Jewish? person got killed on a Campus a month ago, Israel as usual in retaliation sends in Jets, Helicopters, tanks, ships and whatever else they have and kill 20 Palestinians, so which incident as a media company $$$ are you going to emphasize on?

If you could/would check on a statistic on behalf of Israeli civilians killed since 1948 and Palestinians (Unfortunately I do not have one) I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Palestinian deaths surpass those of Israeli by a 100:1. If I should be correct on that, well then it is really about time for the international press to focus on the Palestinians.

Before I continue, please let me say very clearly, every dead person on any side is one too much. It is senseless and doesn't change anything for the better.

As for Iraq (2nd Gulf war) Iraq or Saddam wasn't involved or entangled with 9/11 at all, neither for Iran can this be proven. What can be proven (unfortunately, sadly and irritating) is that the knowhow for a hideous 9/11 was supplied/given by the US themselves via CIA to a group of people, who were well known to the CIA and any other secret service as extremists, violent, terrorist proven and religious fanatics. Even if I should be wrong – which I am not – believe me, every Muslim sees it that way.

The attack on Iraq just totally destabilized this country and has now become a pool / breeding horde for dozens of mindless fanatic groups, which as present Iraq shows, is impossible to handle. And these mindless fu…ers are going to spread as already happened into neighboring countries creating even more havoc as there is already. So thank you USA, or please let me say rather thank you Mr. Bush.

The Iran is the only Muslim country that opposes Israel which has suffered so far no military disgrace via Israel. Personally in today's world I see no reason for a country "not" to possess nuclear weapons as long as other countries have them. Once Iran has them, I wouldn't be surprised that Israel suddenly will become very willing to negotiate. On the other hand the chance for Israel to strike at Iran before they would have them is very likely, if one looks on Israel's behavior in the last 30 years, because obviously only the "chosen ones" are allowed to have them.

Personally, – I do not see the present Iranian government as so stupid and fanatic to face extinction themselves by launching one on Israel.
So before Iran might think about developing and using them it is about time for the Europeans and the USA to exert pressure on Israel instead on Muslim countries to reach a peaceful solution. The main problem is not just religion, it is as anywhere else in this world $$$. Reaching a peaceful settlement is one thing, providing financial help and support for the Muslim world is another priority.

And there are going to be elements who will try everything to disturb any peaceful negotiation or settlement. And these elements are not a Muslim government, but individual or ganged up groups.

So dear USA, force Israel to destroy its nuclear weapons and do the same thing with any other country including yourself but don't just pick on one.

Maybe the US problem since 1945 was to always pick sides (many times they chose the wrong one). A policemen (USA) is not supposed to pick sides, he has to act on behalf of the law and be neutral in case of disputes, the rest will be taken care of by the Judge (UN).

Oh Jesus, 3 pages

Regards
Kruska

I personally don't give a rats ass who should inhabit the region of palestian "rightfully". I only know that the Palestinians could have arranged with the situation long ago and could've ended the war with acceptable conditions on multiple occasions.

But turn it around as much as you want, the primary reason they will not accept the state of Israel is lust for revenge, false pride and downright hate towards the Jews. Certainly the Israelis are no angels and have commited a number of atrocities during the whole middle eastern conflict. However their action are primarily aimed at the threat. Innocent civilian deaths are accepted but not the target.

Is this comparable to the Islamist terror which deliberately aims at the innocent?

You could say their (Israels) bombings are much more "pc" than what the US and British did in WW2 to cities like Dresden. Do Germans hold a grudge against certain people (Harris)? Yes, but Germans also knew they had lost and that peace is more important than revenge or pride.

So pardon my ignorance on the various Muslim subcultures and their inner fights, what it boils down to is that a large part of the Muslim world seems to not have evolved their mindset much past the middle ages. And it is their faith that is the major contribution behind this. I don't have to go to the middle east to see that. I can just look out the window in my neighbourhood.

That we are kissing the ass of backwards oriented religion that is imo unhealthy to the development of mankind, is one of the most perverted issues going on right now.

Udet said:

And what about Israel´s past and present actions? Do teaching programs in England cover Israeli Bolshevik/Nazi-styled practices, policies and crimes against arabs in the bloody region where all those fundamenlists live? I think not...

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No, I wouldn't excuse all of Israel's policys either

plan_D said:

I won't get into the Israel vs. Arab debate; I think my views are well known. As for the French actions - they do seem to react better to this new threat to Western society ... they send them all to Britain through the Channel Tunnel.

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Njaco said:

Wish we had the luck! When this happens here we send OUR citizens to Canada!

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WHAT!!! WTF is this? Do you mean we don't get your "best brightest"?

I think we had better put some armed guards on the "Peace bridge" if McCain wins the election, otherwise we'll end up with Streisand, Pelosi Michael Moore wheeling Kennedy's gurney across the bridge on Nov 6 asking for asylum!

It was 'tongue in cheek' freebird!

Kruska, again I say I agree with alot of your points and I do have a VERY limited knowledge on the history of that region but I guess I'm a little biased towards the jews.

but

As for Iraq (2nd Gulf war) Iraq or Saddam wasn't involved or entangled with 9/11 at all, neither for Iran can this be proven.

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This is where the media clouds the minds of the world. From the first days of 9/11 Bush's stated purpose was to attack "terrorism" in all its forms and all those who help in it. The focus wasn't just those involved in 9/11 but terrorism as a whole and this was ONE of the MANY reasons we went to Iraq. Saddam was assisting the terrorism trade through many means. We captured the mastermind of the "Aquille Lauro" incident among others. Iraq was an open door for terrorist groups. But the media has pushed that 9/11 connection so much that the true purpose of 2d Gulf has been lost. And has been discussed in numerous threads here, Bush was great for the "war", the "occupation" has been a mess.

I have a question, though.

On that kill/loss ratio you gave, are you counting deaths caused by the PLO and other like-Palestinian groups from around the world? I mean, speaking of the "Achille Lauro", I don't remember a similar Jewish attack.

KrazyKraut said:

I personally don't give a rats ass who should inhabit the region of palestian "rightfully". I only know that the Palestinians could have arranged with the situation long ago and could've ended the war with acceptable conditions on multiple occasions.

Yes they could have, but why should they, after all the UN resolution in 1947 was unjust and unfair and therefore the Israeli should volunteer to pack their belongings and resettle in Australia, since you don't give a rats ass about "rightfull inhabiting"

But turn it around as much as you want, the primary reason they will not accept the state of Israel is lust for revenge, false pride and downright hate towards the Jews. Certainly the Israelis are no angels and have commited a number of atrocities during the whole middle eastern conflict. However their action are primarily aimed at the threat. Innocent civilian deaths are accepted but not the target.

Off course they hate Israel, so would you if you were Palestinian

Is this comparable to the Islamist terror which deliberately aims at the innocent?

You are correct, it is not comparable. The UN started the problem - since nobody bothered to help the Palestinians they started to "attack" the UN (those countries who favor Israel) and because they are desperate, hopeless, ignored, unliked - they go completely nuts and attack everyone and everything

You could say their (Israels) bombings are much more "pc" than what the US and British did in WW2 to cities like Dresden. Do Germans hold a grudge against certain people (Harris)? Yes, but Germans also knew they had lost and that peace is more important than revenge or pride.

No, it is not because Germany lost the war. It is that most Germans acknowledge the fact that Hitler started the war - bombing Englands cities, and if this lunatic would have had enough big bombers, he would have retaliated against Englands or anybody elses cities far worse then Harris.

And acknowledgement is the macic word, if Israel would ever acknowledge the wrong doing against the Palestinians the problem could be solved. Unfornunatly the only Israeli President who actually did acknowledge this was shot by an Israeli fanatic.

So pardon my ignorance on the various Muslim subcultures and their inner fights, what it boils down to is that a large part of the Muslim world seems to not have evolved their mindset much past the middle ages. And it is their faith that is the major contribution behind this. I don't have to go to the middle east to see that. I can just look out the window in my neighbourhood.

Yes you are correct, and against a middle aged society no one should show muscles, because they will react exactly in the same manner

That we are kissing the ass of backwards oriented religion that is imo unhealthy to the development of mankind, is one of the most perverted issues going on right now.

With all respect towards you, but you forward the same argument / opinion as these backwards do.

Maybe this topic just pi...es you off too much

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Regards
Kruska

Njaco said:

This is where the media clouds the minds of the world. From the first days of 9/11 Bush's stated purpose was to attack "terrorism" in all its forms and all those who help in it. The focus wasn't just those involved in 9/11 but terrorism as a whole and this was ONE of the MANY reasons we went to Iraq. Saddam was assisting the terrorism trade through many means. We captured the mastermind of the "Aquille Lauro" incident among others. Iraq was an open door for terrorist groups. But the media has pushed that 9/11 connection so much that the true purpose of 2d Gulf has been lost. And has been discussed in numerous threads here, Bush was great for the "war", the "occupation" has been a mess.

I don't feel that the Media is clouding anything - maybe because I do not take my believe or knowledge unchecked from the Media and as for Mr. Bush, he would be among those people on this planet that I wouldn't trust or believe for a penny worth.

Any Arab or Muslim country besides Kuweit and the UAE at present is sympathising or even harboring terrorists. The worst country - Sudan - was totally neglected, If Mr. Alkaidah is still alive I would be willing to bet my ass, that he is exactly in this country - should I provokingly say "no oil" ? By attacking Iraq, Bush destabalized the entire region and set birth for dozens of new Muslim nuts/terrorists gangs.

I have a question, though.

On that kill/loss ratio you gave, are you counting deaths caused by the PLO and other like-Palestinian groups from around the world? I mean, speaking of the "Achille Lauro", I don't remember a similar Jewish attack.

No, you are correct I did not include this into the statistic, because I see this as a result of the UN resolution in 1947. As such I would blame the UN for those death just as much as the Israeli and Palestiniens.

All I can say is that as long as Israel is backed without question by the US or other countries there will be never any solution to this terror, and if it continues in this manner, then sooner or later some lunatic is going to press the button or place a "big" bomb. And the place to get most affected by this would be most likely Europe

Let us be honest Njaco, if a nuclear bomb would go off in Europe, who will the Europeans start to blame and hate? only the Muslims and Palestinians? If the bomb would go off in the USA, I wouldn't be surprised to see the US only reacting on behalf of retaliating against Muslims, just as after 9/11

So what does the US or you expect from the Arabs? unconditional surrender? why should they? They never agreed to Israel being reinstalled in 1947, most of them have nothing to loose and dying for Allah reserves a couple of hot chicks for them in heaven

A huge mistake was done in 1933 and in 1947. Even if the Israeli would agree to an independant Palestina - partially on now Israeli territory, the Palestinians would immediatly start to build up an army and use it against Israel, - "unless" the US and Europe would pump billions of $$ into Palestine so that every Palestinian would realize that a good living and a thriving economy is much better then dying for a lost cause, and the US and Europe need to give the Muslim world face, even if this would be interpreted by some people -as by one post above - as kiss ass.

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Regards
Kruska

Kruska before you say that Sudan is neglected, please do some research. We have had forces in that region conducting ops since before 9-11.

As for the WMD discussion (I am not going to get into it in great detail, because I believe the discussion is pointless), but based off of my experiences in Iraq I am firm believe that Sadam had WMD's. I wll leave it at that however.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

Kruska before you say that Sudan is neglected, please do some research. We have had forces in that region conducting ops since before 9-11.

Sudan? sorry never heard about this - besides Dafur region -, the original government still exists happily and nothing has changed in that country at all

As for the WMD discussion (I am not going to get into it in great detail, because I believe the discussion is pointless), but based off of my experiences in Iraq I am firm believe that Sadam had WMD's. I wll leave it at that however.

Maybe you are correct, but no evidence no court ruling

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Regards
Kruska

Good points but I guess I'm seeing it from another side.

then sooner or later some lunatic is going to press the button or place a "big" bomb.

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and by de-stabilizing Israel that lunatic is gonna be the Palestinians. especially with dictators like Saddam around. Oh, wait, hes gone. No matter what the premise, the US would have been in the ME whether for Israel or self interest. Because there are too many lunatics controlling so many governments over there. And as much as I accept your points about jewish aggression I have not nor can I remember any act as vicious or inhumane as tthe acts perpetrated by the palestinians either through the PLO, Hamas or others. That is why I said bood-thirsty, they go for the throat and borders mean nothing.

No, you are correct I did not include this into the statistic, because I see this as a result of the UN resolution in 1947. As such I would blame the UN for those death just as much as the Israeli and Palestiniens.

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I could easily siad that in regards to the recent rocket attacks on Israel and the Israeli response that they brought it on themselves and those deaths can be discounted. It can go on and on. I wish someone from both sides would say enough is enough and forget about past trangressons and work for some kind of peace. But as you pointed out, one side will never do that, their religion has promised them too much. So again I lay it on their doorstep.

Any Arab or Muslim country besides Kuweit and the UAE at present is sympathising or even harboring terrorists. The worst country - Sudan - was totally neglected

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Why Sudan? Again, I'm not very knowledgable about a few of these countries. But I do know of one that turns my stomache and I'll be ruffling feathers here. France. From harboring the Ayatolla to suppling weapons parts through Syria to Iraq, France has done nothing to help the situation. Maybe one big reason they were never part of the coalition.

Understand that a lot of what goes on in the world baffles me. From Northern Ireland to Bosnia/kosovo to Baghdad. Segregation has been a hot point in this country for the past 50 years or as Rodney King said "Why can't we all get along". The government here works at letting everyone and their culture live together. Then when you step outside the US its all "Blue Eyes" against "Brown Eyes". Is it right to kick the Protestants out of Belfast or the Jews out of the Gaza Strip? Or is it the right thing to let them all live together? There is so much nationalism and racism, its confusing.

So maybe its "piss on them, they deserve what they get - all of them." There is no tolerance anywhere anymore.

Njaco said:

Good points but I guess I'm seeing it from another side.

You are free to do so

Why Sudan? Again, I'm not very knowledgable about a few of these countries. But I do know of one that turns my stomache and I'll be ruffling feathers here. France. From harboring the Ayatolla to suppling weapons parts through Syria to Iraq, France has done nothing to help the situation. Maybe one big reason they were never part of the coalition.

Sudan is one of the worst and most repressing Muslim ruled countries, and has trained, harbored and equipt terrorists since two decades.

The US have opposed the Iraq for a long time because Iran is an arch enemy of Iraq and was USA best buddy - besides Israel - for decades. After the Ayatolla took over, the US were approving French weapon sales to Iraq and supported Iraq themselfs, if you manage to get your hands on some published "internal classified information" to the Iran-Iraq war, you will understand - maybe not justificate - Iraq's attack on Kuweit

So maybe its "piss on them, they deserve what they get - all of them." There is no tolerance anywhere anymore.



I am very tolerant towards my girl if she wants to cook for me, sweep the house or wash my cloth, I can live with that.
Good God don't you ever tell her that okay

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Regards
Kruska

Ok!

Kruska said:

Yes they could have, but why should they, after all the UN resolution in 1947 was unjust and unfair and therefore the Israeli should volunteer to pack their belongings and resettle in Australia, since you don't give a rats ass about "rightfull inhabiting"

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It's that kind of thinking that leads to World Wars, including the last one. We want what we want because we think were right (it's not like Israelis didn't live in that region before) and we rather spend the next six decades killing and dieing instead of arranging for the sake of peace. I mean it's not like there was any chance of winning and all I achieve is more suffering among my own people, but why should I stop? I mean afterall it's me who's right.

And acknowledgement is the macic word, if Israel would ever acknowledge the wrong doing against the Palestinians the problem could be solved. Unfornunatly the only Israeli President who actually did acknowledge this was shot by an Israeli fanatic.

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Because we didn't see what happens if Isreal gives into Palestinian demands and makes concessions: The Muslims respect that and show their goodwill... oh wait they don't

Yes you are correct, and against a middle aged society no one should show muscles, because they will react exactly in the same manner

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No against a middle aged society you can only react with muscle, because that is the only language they speak.

And it's not like we couldn't deal with the situation. But thanks to people like you, feeling all politically correct far away from the trouble and "oh boy those poor Palestinian Robin Hoods", we rather turn on our own friends instead of showing the unity that was appropriate.

"unless" the US and Europe would pump billions of $$ into Palestine so that every Palestinian would realize that a good living and a thriving economy is much better then dying for a lost cause, and the US and Europe need to give the Muslim world face, even if this would be interpreted by some people -as by one post above - as kiss ass.

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Oh boy, i think the next chancellor candidate of "Die Linke" is among us.
Well let's take a look at Muslims here in our countries:
Are they living well? Yes.
Are tensions decreasing? No. On the contrary to be exact.
Hmm...

All this about what is right and wrong bores me...what happened to the good old days when you could invade and do whatever you want; as long as you won...

I think both Israel and Palestine are in the wrong; but then the Western World is in the wrong too for getting involved. Let them fight it out amongst themselves if they can't live happily ever after, then lets see one of them exterminated.

After believing that I could work out who was right or wrong I have come to the conclusion that the Middle East is still in the 12th Century. It's nothing to do with oil, religion, revenge or any of that - it's simply tribal. The same applies to gangs, cults, extremist groups and all that. And it's the same in a lot of African nations that are riddled with "Civil War". You can't stop the violence over there because there's no real reason for them to be fighting; sure in whatever century BC the Persians held Palestine... but I don't read a history book and see that Henry VI was King of England and France then go around declaring a French passport because Britain should own it anyway.

No one really cares who owned what thousands of years ago. Or even 100 years ago... it's just that they're all tribal, uncivilised morons. The same applies to those "clans" or "rebels" in Africa, South-East Asia, Russia ...and the same applies to your gangs in all the Western nations. Only consider it a problem when it affects you...otherwise just let 'em slog it out.

It all belonged to Britain anyway!

God Save the Queen!!!!

kruska...Tell use why we the west has to pump billion in to Palestine's ..When the Medal East has some of the richest country in the world...Why...???

Its always killed me how they have some of the poor's and richest people in the world ...And countrys like Saudi Arabia have all this money to put up these big hotels...But let the country around them live so poor ..Then point fingers at the west ..And blame there wars on the west that started when time be gain..And in the US's case was not even a countrys when the wars started...