United States Aircraft Markings

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by Micdrow, Oct 19, 2006.

  1. Bobtucker

    Bobtucker New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2007
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    double post
     
  2. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    48,213
    Likes Received:
    1,472
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    I doubt that, when this P51 was given its nose art, a definite font was used, as the name would have been hand painted.
    The colours were Olive Drab over natural metal, with the nose in Insignia Yellow. I haven't got a 3-view, but here's one picture i took of the Duxford based 'Frankie.
    It may be that you can find further info from the 361st FG web site, and there are contact details there for the chaps who run the splendid new museum on the site of Bottisham airfield. What they don't know about the 361st is probably not worth knowing !
     

    Attached Files:

  3. lampie

    lampie New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2009
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1

    Red bordered stars and bars were around for a longer period of time than the official orders suggest. This isn't just the usual "exceptions to every rule" examples.

    334th FS, 4th FG, received the order to add the bars with red borders on 19th July 1943 with work beginning that day. About the right time frame for an official order dated end of June to make it through to the individual squadrons/groups.
    However, the order to change the red border to a blue border wasn't received until November 5th 1943.
    Source of this info is the 334th FS operational records.
    If the 4th received the orders on these dates it's logical to assume that the other fighter groups in the 8th USAAF received them on the same dates as well.

    All the best,
    Nige

    Editor
    P47 Heaven :: AeroScale's Special Interest Group for the P47 Thunderbolt

    Owner
    56th Fighter Group in World War II
     
  4. N4521U

    N4521U Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    8,633
    Likes Received:
    224
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    reduced to all around slobbing
    Location:
    Miranda, NSW
    I am looking for B-24 markings standards, did I miss it in here?
    US attached to Australia.
     
  5. destrozas

    destrozas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Messages:
    2,344
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    electromechanical assembly
    the other day looking for the most successful colors for the Stinson L-1 Vigilant found this page:

    ANA Colors - JPR Guide

    is quite indicative.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Procrastintor

    Procrastintor Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2012
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    LA
    Dang, P-51 looks good in that paint scheme, I like the black.
     
  7. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    48,213
    Likes Received:
    1,472
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    What black? The top surfaces are Olive Drab, but look darker, although definitely not black, due to the available light in the hangar.
     
  8. Augsburg Eagle

    Augsburg Eagle Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Airport Facility Management
    Location:
    Munich
    #68 Augsburg Eagle, Nov 19, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2013
    Didn´t see it here, but found it in the endless corners of the world wide web. :)
     

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 1
  9. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    48,845
    Likes Received:
    2,036
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
  10. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    11,530
    Likes Received:
    1,138
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Heavy Equipment Operator
    Location:
    Jungles of Canada
    Great file, thank you for posting.

    Geo
     
  11. N4521U

    N4521U Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    8,633
    Likes Received:
    224
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    reduced to all around slobbing
    Location:
    Miranda, NSW
    Looking to find out markings standards for VMF-121, mid 1943.......... Wanting to know where the large side numbers come from, were they the last three numbers of the Bu. number? For instance would 02488 have been "488" on the side marking?
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    48,845
    Likes Received:
    2,036
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    #72 Wurger, Feb 6, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2015
    As memory serves the Marine squadrons used the endings of the serials for ID number of a/c. The number could be painted at a couple of different areas depending on a squadron. But it doesn't seems to be the rule. Here is the Kenneth Walsh's F-4U-1 BuNo 02350 coded White 13 for instance.

    F-4U-1 Kenneth Walshs White 13.jpg

    F-4U-1 Kenneth Walshs White 13_.jpg
     
  13. N4521U

    N4521U Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    8,633
    Likes Received:
    224
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    reduced to all around slobbing
    Location:
    Miranda, NSW
    Doesn't seem to be any consistancy in these codes. Perhaps Walsh just liked the number 13........... like another we know.
    This is an official photo of VMF-121 in '43....... appears the numbers are rego numbers. Wish I could find out fur shur.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    48,845
    Likes Received:
    2,036
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    According to books about F4U I have, these numbers were parts of their BuNo ones mostly. However these short numbers painted on planes weren't the endings often. I have seen images of the White 10 and 14 of the same VMF-213 squadron and a couple of other early Corsairs of that numbers weren't parts of their serials.
     
  15. net_sailor

    net_sailor Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    318
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Elbląg/Poland
    Home Page:
    Does anybody know official regulations for painting of wartime US national insignia on P-51D (1944-1945 period)? Especially I'm looking for star dimensions and positioning on wings/fuselage. Drawings are welcome.
     
  16. Micdrow

    Micdrow “Archive”
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    7,850
    Likes Received:
    466
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Occupation:
    Manufacture Tech
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Interesting question, so far I have found nothing in the material that I have for that year markings. will keep looking.
     
  17. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    11,530
    Likes Received:
    1,138
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Heavy Equipment Operator
    Location:
    Jungles of Canada
    I'm 6 days away from my books so hopefully you or someone else can find it Paul. I've got the USAAF markings book and a few others.

    Geo
     
  18. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    48,845
    Likes Received:
    2,036
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    #78 Wurger, Mar 28, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2015

    Generally the official regulations for the US national insignia was the A-N Aeronautical Spec. AN-I-9, Insigina, National Star ( for airplane exterior ) dated March the 1st 1943 with a couple of later supplements and technical orders (T.O) to that:

    AN-I-9, Insignia, National Star (for airplane exterior), March 1, 1943
    AN-I-9a, adds white bars and a red outline to national star insignia, June 29,1943
    AN-I-9b, changes insignia outline to insignia blue, deletes word "star" from insignia, August 14, 1943

    T. O. 07-1-1 issued in color, June 15, 1943
    T. O. 07-1-1A, corrects errors in earlier version, June 17, 1943
    T. O. 07-1-1B, adds white bars and red outline to insignia, June 29,1943
    T. O. 07-1-1C, fixes size of wing insignia between 30 and 60 inches diameter, July 3,1943
    T. O. 07-1-1D changes Insignia border color to Insignia Blue, September 24,1943.
    T. O. 07-1-1 , General-aircraft camouflage, markings and insignia , replacing these technical orders above, December 26,1943
    T. O. 07-1-1, gives instructions for removal of camouflage, April 25, 1944.

    The sepcifiction was stating ... " The national insignia is an insignia white five pointed star inside an insignia blue circumscribed circle.... Two insignia are to be used on the wings of all airplanes. One is to be placed on the upper surface of the left wing and one on the lower surface of the right wing. They are to be placed at a distance from the wing tip equel to one-third of the distance from the fuselage to the wing tip and tangent to the aileron cut out. If the space is not available for the minimum size specified the insignia can be moved inboard minimum distance necessary.
    : The wing insignia are to have a maximum diameter of 60 inches and a minimum diameter of 30 inches. Standard sizes are to be in multiples of 5 inches. The diameter used is to be the standard size closet to, but not exceeding, 90 percent of the distance between the leading edge and the aileron cut out at the point of application.
    : The fuselage insignia are to be placed at each side of the fuselage approximately midway between the trailing edge of the wing and the leading edge of the stabilizer, but the insignia is never to be placed closer than 35 inches to the trailing edge of the wing. The insignia can be moved fore or aft the mid-point to avoid covering transparencies. If the fuselage section between the wing and the stabilizer isn't able to accomodate the minimum size specified , the fuselage insignia can be moved to other parts of the fuselage where it can be readily seen from the side. The fuselage insignia are to have a maximum diameter of 50 inches and the minimum diameter of 20 inches and are to come in standard sizes in multiples of 5 inches. The diameter selected is to be the standard size which comes nearest to , but doesn't exceed being 75 percent of the projected hight of the fuselage side at the piont of application."


    T.O. No. 07·1·1, Aircraft Camouflage, markings and insignia , June 15, 1943.

    "Wings - Insignia of a size 80-90 percent of available width of wingat location specified herein will be maintained on top of top surface of the left wing and lower surface of the right wing with pont forward.The center will be located inboard of each wing tip one-sixteenth of the total wing span on wings non tapered but with outside edge not nearer than 6 inches to end and one-eighth of span on tapered wing. The cocarde will be located tangent to the aileron cut-out or midway of the wing width on those on which aileron cut-out is not a factor.
    Fuselage - one star insignia approximately 75 percent of hight of of fuselage will be applied to each side with point upward near-midway between the trailing edge of the wing and the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer.
     
  19. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    48,845
    Likes Received:
    2,036
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    T. O. 07-1-1 , General-aircraft camouflage, markings and insignia, December 26,1943

    4. STANDARD INSIGNIA.
    $1. Standard insignia will be placed on all Army Air Forces aircraft. It will be applied so that in normal flight attitude at the airplane, the top star point of the insignia points upward on fuselage surfaces and forward on wing surfaces. Decalcomanias may be used when available.
    (I) The standard insignia retains the five-point white star within the blue circle (as formerly). Standard sizes will have diameters of the basic blue circle in multiples of 5 inches, as 20, 25, 30, 35, etc.
    (2) The straight line formed on the top edges of the two-star points that are located to the left and right of the
    upper star point will be extended outward from the blue circle a distance equal to one radius (one-half of the diameter) of the circle. Draw lines at right angles to this line at each end extending downward for a distance equal to one half the radius of the circle. Draw horizontal lines parallel to the first line from the ends of the two vertical lines until they intersect the circle. The area thus created will be painted white.
    (3) Using a width one-eighth the radius of the circle, place a border of insignia blue around the entire design thus formed.
    b. For wing insignia, the diameter of the basic blue circle will be the standard size which is nearest to, but does not exceed 75 percent of the distance between the leading edge of the wing and the aileron cutout at the point of application. It should not be greater than 60 nor less than 30 inches in diameter. The insignia specified herein will be placed on the top surface of the left wing and on the lower surface of the right wing with the center of the insignia inboard from each wing tip one-third of the distance from the wing tip to the fuselage, and with the blue border tangent to (touching) the aileron cut-out. The insignia may be moved in a minimum distance necessary where space is not available for the minimum size specified. On biplanes, insignia will be applied only to the upper left wing and lower right wing.
    c. For fuselage insignia, the diameter of the insignia will be standard size which is nearest to, but not greater than, 75 percent of height of fuselage at the point of application. The diameter of the basic blue circle should be not less than 20 inches, or greater than 50 inches. These will be placed and maintained on each side of the fuselage near midway between the trailing edge of the wing and leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer, but may be moved to the rear (or forward) of the midpoint to avoid turrets or other plastic material. The insignia may extend over doors and emergency exits, but shall not extend over windows or
    openings which would change the insignia pattern. If the fuselage section, as described herein, is not large enough to accommo date the minimum size specified, the fuselage insignia may be placed on such other parts of the fuselage as will permit its being readily seen from the side. On aircraft assigned to AAF Training Command, if insufficient space is available for both insignia and Field identifying numerals, the fuselage insignia may be omitted.

    T. O. 07-1-1, instructions for removal of camouflage, at the discretion of the commanders concerned, April 25, 1944.

    4. STANDARD INSIGNIA.
    a.GENERAL.
    (1) Standard insignia will be placed on all Army Air Forces aircraft. It will be applied so that in normal flight attitude of the airplane, the top star point of the insignia points upward on fuselage surfaces and forward on wing surfaces. Decalcomanias may be used when available. Masking paste, Specification No. 14127, may be used in lieu of masking tape if paint is used.
    (2) The standard insignia retains the five-point white star within the blue circle (as formerly). Standard sizes will have diameters
    of the basic blue circle in multiples of 5 inches, as 20, 25, 30, 35, etc.
    (3) The straight line formed on the top edges of the two-star points that are located to the left and right of the upper star point will be extended outward from the blue circle a distance equal to one half the radius of the circle (Note: this is an error-see T.O. 07-1-1B, dated May 29, 1944). Draw horizontal lines parallel to the first line from the ends of the two vertical lines until they intersect the circle. The area thus created will be painted white.
    (4) Using a width one-eighth the radius of the circle, place a border of insignia blue around the entire design thus formed.
    b. WING INSIGNIA. - The diameter of the basic blue circle will be the standard size which is nearest to, but does not exceed 75 percent of the distance between the leading edge of the wing and the aileron cutout at the point of application. It should not be greater than 60 nor less than 30 inches in diameter. The insignia specified herein will be placed on the top surface of the left wing and on the lower surface of the right wing with the center of the insignia inboard from each wing tip one-third of the distance from the wing tip to the fuselage, and with the blue border tangent to (touching) the aileron cut-out. The insignia may be moved in a minimum distance necessary where space is not available for the minimum size specified. On biplanes, insignia will be applied only to the upper left wing and lower right wing.
    c. FUSELAGE INSIGNIA. - The diameter of the insignia will be standard size which is nearest to, but not greater than, 75 percent of height of fuselage at the point of application. The diameter of the basic blue circle should be not less than 20 inches, or greater than 50 inches. These will be placed and maintained on each side of the fuselage near midway between the trailing edge of the wing and leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer, but may be moved to the rear (or forward) of the midpoint to avoid turrets or other plastic material. The insignia may extend over doors and emergency exits, but shall not extend over windows or openings which would change the insignia pattern. If the fuselage section, as described herein, is not large enough to accommodate the minimum size specified, the fuselage insignia may be placed on such other parts of the fuselage as will permit its being readily seen from the side. On aircraft assigned to AAFTraining Command, if insufficient space is available for both insignia and Field identifying numerals, the fuselage insignia may be omitted.


    Clipboard01b.jpg
     
  20. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    48,845
    Likes Received:
    2,036
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    #80 Wurger, Mar 28, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2015
    To sum up .... as memo serves the US national insignia used for P-51D were either of 30 inches or 35 inches. But I'm not sure fully.

    And here shots of a note I found in a book for P-51...

    usstar1a.jpg
    usstar1b.jpg
     
Loading...

Share This Page