USA and DDR penetration about D25T gun

[Soren]

Not really, it's a general comment. As I said there are more sections dealing with these problems. No HL 230 developed 700CV. Nominal value was 690CV but this was at max regime (3000rpm). Risk of fire was just too high and reduced to 2500rpm. This would give 600CV, not very healthy for a 70 ton tank. Read Jentz:

Maximum speed for the Tiger-I decreased to 37.8km/h and for the Tiger-II to 34.6km/h after November 1943 when HL 230 motor was regulated not to exceed 2500rpm.

Tiger-I and II combat tactics, by Jentz

The HL230 P30 developed 700 PS (European horsepower) at 3,000 rpm (equal to 690 bhp), later a governor was put on which wouldn't allow rpms to exceed 2,500 rpm. This was done not because of a risk of fire, but simply to increase engine life as the Germans knew that regular maintenance would be hard to achieve in the situation they were currently placed.

But contrary to what you incorrectly claim this reduction in max permissable rpm had no effect on the tank's mobility at all, which is also explained by Jentz (Do you even read what he writes??). The max torque (1,850 Nm) of the HL230 engine being developed at 2,100 rpm.

The Tiger values are simply wrong.

No they aren't, they are exactly right and from Jentz.

Not really, Jentz trilogy on Tiger is far better.

Don't you get it?? The info on that site IS from Jentz! I have the books, I know, much of what is written on the site is directly copied from works by Jentz!

Anyway, Tigers were operated in independent battalions because they demanded much more maintenance and were far more complicated than other tanks used in Panzer divisions. As mkenny pointed out (excellent message), availability was higher very often because Tigers saw less combat. Some more information.

Soldiers of the fuel section of the battalion during a formation. These soldiers were kept very busy satisfying the "thirst" of a Tiger [I}, which consumed 500 liters of fuel for every 500 kilometers of cross country movement. (Pag 219)

By the way, that value 500 litres/ 500 kms is what the Russians measured in Kubinka.

And here's what is listed in the German manual (Again provided by Jentz):

Fuel capacity: 860 Liters
Range Cross country: 80 km
Range on road: 170 to 120 km

That translates into a fuel consupmtion cross country of 10.75 L/km, which is more than 500 Liters pr. 500 km as that simply enough tranlates into 10 L/km. So here we see that the German specs are once more actually quite conservative compared to the real performance.

Anything else you'd like to come up with?

Finally, some information on quality:

"IS-2 vehicles, most likely from the 13th Heavy Tank Regiment, skirmished with the Tigers from 424 sHPzAbt near Lisow. The advancing Tigers were greeted by powerful and accurate fire from tanks and ant-tank weapons. The armor, made from lower quality steel (due to problems with raw materials) could not withstand the 122mm, 25 kilogram projectiles and the attack broke down. The battalion commander, Major Saemisch was killed and numerous tanks were lost."

Kielce 1945" by Norbert Baczyk.

You must be joking! The Tigers lost near Lisow were taking out from the flanks after having been poorly commanded into a very disadvantagous situation, getting bogged down in the swamps surrounding the town of Lisow. The quality of the Tiger's armour had nothing to do with the outcome of that battle, the stupid tactics employed by the commander of those tanks however had everything to do with it. But besides this one of the company's tanks commanded by Lt. Oberbracht managed to knock out 7 Soviet tanks in his bogged down outflanked Tiger II in that battle, having earlier in the same day destroyed another 12 Soviet tanks.

From Tigers in Combat by Wolfgang Schneider:

"On the march to Lisow, Tiger 323 breaks through a 12 ton bridge. The battalion launches the assault with the first company on the left, the third company on the right and the second company following. Several tanks are bogged down in the swamps beside the narrow road and cannot be recovered. On the South edge of Lisow, the Tiger 111 (Lt. Oberbracht) loses both tracks, nevertheless, it destroys 20 tanks. The second company knocks out 7 T-34s. Tigers 202 and 221 break down during the movement to contact 200 meters in front of the town. Tiger 334 stops with a broken driveshaft. In Lisow the battalion is ambushed by Josef Stalin tanks and hidden anti-tank guns, and is almost completely wiped out. The battalion commander's Tiger is also knocked out....During the retreat, Tiger 332 recovers one of the bogged down tanks of the 3rd company, but suffers a broken track tensioner a short time later and has to be blown up." "

Also just so you know it, there isn't a single incident during the war where a Tiger Ausf.B was knocked out from the front. In short no Tiger Ausf.B ever had its' frontal armour defeated in combat, of the ones lost in actual combat, which was very few, all were taken out by flanking shots from the side or rear, or from above by enemy fighter bombers. So there's your testimony to the quality of its armour.

In the west one Tiger II was taken out from the front by a shot to its belly after driving over a pile of rubble.

 

[m kenny]

Also just so you know it, there isn't a single incident during the war where a Tiger Ausf.B was knocked out from the front

So you know the fate of every Tiger II?

In short no Tiger Ausf.B ever had its' frontal armour defeated in combat

You have confused the mantra. What you mean to repeat is:
there are no photos of a Tiger II with a glacis penetration
This is not the same as 'frontal penetration' nor is it the same as no Tiger glacis was ever penetrated.

of the ones lost in actual combat, which was very few, all were taken out by flanking shots from the side or rear, or from above by enemy fighter bombers.

As studies showed that side and rear penetrations were greater in number than frontal penetrations then having a good frontal aspect only gives you a small advantage. It is not a decisive edge.
There are very few instances of Tiger II's being destroyed by aircraft so that excuse is a bit jaded.
Perhaps you have a list of the fate of the 45 Tiger II's left smouldering in Normandy.
How many were 'lost in combat'?

In the west one Tiger II was taken out from the front by a shot to its belly after driving over a pile of rubble.

The claim for the Super Pershing from the books 'Another River' and ' Death Traps'. Almost certainly mistaken. No Tiger II's were in the area.

 

[alejandro_]

Don't you get it?? The info on that site IS from Jentz! I have the books, I know, much of what is written on the site is directly copied from works by Jentz!

Indeed, but having the whole thing is much better.

No they aren't, they are exactly right and from Jentz.

Ok, we should just say they don't apply to

But contrary to what you incorrectly claim this reduction in max permissable rpm had no effect on the tank's mobility at all, which is also explained by Jentz (Do you even read what he writes??). The max torque (1,850 Nm) of the HL230 engine being developed at 2,100 rpm.

Are you completely sure? Do you have a graph of torque vs rpm? where does he say that? Usually max power is given at the corresponding rpm. Giving some random rpm for max torque/power is strange to say the least. How comes the max speed reduce after limiting the rpm? Where in Jentz does this appear? I have only come accross it in wikipedia.

600 @ 2,500 rmp.
Pz.Kpfw.Tiger Ausf.B "Tiger II"

Anything else you'd like to come up with?

I am still waiting for a source on this:

AFAIK no Tiger tanks were assembled by slave labour, they had highly skilled labourers for that.

You must be joking! The Tigers lost near Lisow were taking out from the flanks

Where is you evidence for these facts?

Also just so you know it, there isn't a single incident during the war where a Tiger Ausf.B was knocked out from the front.

Tanknet.org > Anyone know what did this to thisd King Tiger?
And lack of evidence is not evidence by itself.

In short no Tiger Ausf.B ever had its' frontal armour defeated in combat, of the ones lost in actual combat, which was very few, all were taken out by flanking shots from the side or rear, or from above by enemy fighter bombers.

Same with IS-2 mod 1944 or Ferdinand, no evidence. The point being?

 

[Soren]

I am still waiting for a source on this:
Quote:
AFAIK no Tiger tanks were assembled by slave labour, they had highly skilled labourers for that.

Are YOU waiting for a source? Hey mr., YOU were the one claiming that Tiger II's were subject to sabotage caused by slave labour, am I right? Is it then not your job to support that statement, not mine? I have nowhere read that any Tiger was assembled by slave labour, only that skilled workers were used. I also happen to have many pictures of the production lines, and there are no slave labourers on any of those pictures.

In short, I am the one who's waiting here.

Are you completely sure? Do you have a graph of torque vs rpm? where does he say that? Usually max power is given at the corresponding rpm. Giving some random rpm for max torque/power is strange to say the least. How comes the max speed reduce after limiting the rpm? Where in Jentz does this appear? I have only come accross it in wikipedia.

Alejandro it doesn't seem like you're much into engines and how they work. The max torque of an engine is not reached at the same rpm as the max horsepower. Furthermore as long as you don't reduce the rpm below the max torque point only the horsepower and therefore top speed is affected by any alterations in rpm, it doesn't affect pulling power at all. I thought you knew that.

For better understanding:

Torque is part of the basic specification of an engine: the power output of an engine is expressed as its torque multiplied by its rotational speed of the axis. Internal-combustion engines produce useful torque only over a limited range of rotational speeds (typically from around 1,000–6,000 rpm for a small car). The varying torque output over that range can be measured with a dynamometer, and shown as a torque curve. The peak of that torque curve occurs somewhat below the overall power peak. The torque peak cannot, by definition, appear at higher rpm than the power peak.

Understanding the relationship between torque, power and engine speed is vital in automotive engineering, concerned as it is with transmitting power from the engine through the drive train to the wheels. Power is a function of torque and engine speed. The gearing of the drive train must be chosen appropriately to make the most of the motor's torque characteristics. Power at the drive wheels is equal to engine power less mechanical losses regardless of any gearing between the engine and drive wheels.

Steam engines and electric motors tend to produce maximum torque close to zero rpm, with the torque diminishing as rotational speed rises (due to increasing friction and other constraints). Reciprocating steam engines can start heavy loads from zero RPM without a clutch

Hence why (like I've already explained), a hp vs weight comparison in no way defines how mobile a vehicle is.

So I will repeat what I've already said, sometime in 1944 a governor was put on the HL230 engine which wouldn't allow rpms to exceed 2,500 rpm. And again this was done not because of any risk of fire (Don't know where you got that from??), but simply in an attempt to increase engine life, the Germans knowing full well that regular maintenance would be hard to achieve with the huge lack of oil spare parts from which they were suffering.

Pretty much every break down experienced by Tiger units was caused by either lack of oil, laco of spare parts, lack of regular maintenance or too brutal a treatment inflicted by a novice driver.

Where is you evidence for these facts?

The combat which took place there is very well covered alejandro, you should pick up Wolf Schneider's books on the Tiger, Tiger's in Combat I II. The battalion commander led the Tigers directly into a swamp and was then ambushed from the flanks by both AT guns, T-34's JS2's. Despite this

Tanknet.org > Anyone know what did this to thisd King Tiger?
And lack of evidence is not evidence by itself.

That picture has become pretty famous amongst some people, only problem is no'one knows where its from or wether we're looking at a penetration at all. Furthermore we know nothing about what gun supposedly inflicted the damage seen.

Same with IS-2 mod 1944 or Ferdinand, no evidence. The point being?

Oh really ? I beg to differ:

JS-2 K'oed by a Tiger Ausf.E by s single rond through the front turret:

15 JS-2's knocked out frontally from a distance of 1,500m by Tiger Ausf.E's from the GrossDeutchland Division in August 1944:

 

[alejandro_]

The combat which took place there is very well covered alejandro, you should pick up Wolf Schneider's books on the Tiger, Tiger's in Combat I II. The battalion commander led the Tigers directly into a swamp and was then ambushed from the flanks by both AT guns, T-34's JS2's. Despite this

Again, source which says the shooting was only from the flank for all tanks, exact quote.

Alejandro it doesn't seem like you're much into engines and how they work. The max torque of an engine is not reached at the same rpm as the max horsepower. Furthermore as long as you don't reduce the rpm below the max torque point only the horsepower and therefore top speed is affected by any alterations in rpm, it doesn't affect pulling power at all. I thought you knew that.

Don't pull away, where in Jentz does it say that reduction in RPM did not affect mobility? where does it say max torque takes place at 2100rpm. Have you ever seen a torque vs power output graph for HL 230. Prove it.

Engine setup was similar to Panther, hence risk of fire.

Pretty much every break down experienced by Tiger units was caused by either lack of oil, laco of spare parts, lack of regular maintenance or too brutal a treatment inflicted by a novice driver.

Source of this?

 

[thrawn]

max. Torque at 70% of rpm.

100% = 3000 rpm

3000rpm * 0.7 = 2100rpm. Soren is right.

 

[Soren]

Again, source which says the shooting was only from the flank for all tanks, exact quote.

Are you kidding me? Does it need to say from which angle each tank was knocked out??? They were ambushed alejandro! Do you know how an ambush works? Usually it doesn't happen from the front, I can tell you that. Also it just so happens that there are pictures of the Tigers lost there actually, and guess what ALL where knocked out from the side or rear.

Engine setup was similar to Panther, hence risk of fire.

Similar engine set up ? Wrong! Read up on both tanks, the early Panthers suffered from improper cooling and a leaking problem which caused a risk of fire. This problem of the Panther was quickly solved however, and it was never a problem which plagued the Tiger II.

Don't pull away, where in Jentz does it say that reduction in RPM did not affect mobility? where does it say max torque takes place at 2100rpm. Have you ever seen a torque vs power output graph for HL 230. Prove it.

Like I said, you don't know much about engines do you?

Source of this?

German loss reports ofcourse.

 

[Juha]

Soren
Now how an ambush was organized depends on terrain and situation, one cannot say unequivocally than an ambushed party was hit only by flanking fire. IIRC many of the ambushes I organized during military manoeuvres were partly frontal, but we were usually delaying and wearing down the "enemy" not defending rigidly a given place as the Soviets were in Lisow.

Anyway, a couple description of the battle of Lisow

Axis History Factbook: Schwere Panzer Abteilung 424

and more interesting one, Axis History Forum • View topic - The Battle for Lisow January 13th 1945 message #2 shows the Soviet side of the story, unfortunately no source. According to it Soviets lost 11 total write-offs and 11 badly damaged but repairable.

Juha

 

[alejandro_]

Like I said, you don't know much about engines do you?

Far more than you know about the IS-2. Those photos you posted before and I can see now correspond to IS-2 mod 1943! not 1944. And you want to discuss about torques?

Similar engine set up ? Wrong! Read up on both tanks, the early Panthers suffered from improper cooling and a leaking problem which caused a risk of fire. This problem of the Panther was quickly solved however, and it was never a problem which plagued the Tiger II.

Lets see what "expert" Coronel G.B. Jarrett wrote:

The engine room compartment was quite like the Panther and the engine was identical - the HL 230 of 690 Hp. This fact probably was the undoing of the Tiger Tank, as it certainly was badly under powered. A Dr. Arnold seen by the author in Germany, who was one of the main designers of the Tigers for Henschel, claim - they were trying to increase the Hp and unless they increased the size of the engine compartment to permit installation of a heaver engine, they could not improve the power situation very much. It, in a sense had them stymied. Dr. Arnold also complained that this situation arose from having Rommel insist that the Tiger be furnished for front line duty, some 6 months before they were ready,and that they had to use the 690 Hp Panther engine. Rommel, having "der Fuhrer's" ear had wanted to get a gun, like in the earlier Ferdinand, but in a 360 degree turret. This had been one of the leading reasons for the development of so large a tank, and based on the success of the Panther (47 tons), the Tiger had been presumed to also be successful.

In the opinion of the author, any tank the size of the King Tiger is a mistake. The Panther could go many palces the King Tiger couldn't, bridges as just one example, and yet its gun could do fully 85% of the damage possible to the Tiger's 88. As fas as Allied tanks were concerned, as seen in the ETO, the Panther's high velocity 75 was ample."

Is it that surprising?

Are you kidding me? Does it need to say from which angle each tank was knocked out??? They were ambushed alejandro! Do you know how an ambush works? Usually it doesn't happen from the front, I can tell you that. Also it just so happens that there are pictures of the Tigers lost there actually, and guess what ALL where knocked out from the side or rear.

Ho-ho you have photos too? do you that those combats took place over more than a day? maybe the Tiger-II were ambushed for more than a day then.

As I said, lack of proof -as in IS-2 mod 1944 or Ferdinand- is not a proof by itself.

Lets see what Jentz says on the reduction in rpm versus Tiger-II performance:

Maximum speed for the Tiger-I decreased to 37.8km/h and for the Tiger-II to 34.6km/h after November 1943 when HL 230 motor was regulated not to exceed 2500rpm.

Tiger-I and II combat tactics, by Jentz

That picture has become pretty famous amongst some people, only problem is no'one knows where its from or wether we're looking at a penetration at all. Furthermore we know nothing about what gun supposedly inflicted the damage seen.

Its penetrated and there are references to the combat. For example, that IS-2 mod 1943 you saw in the photo is also claimed by Grossdeutschland Panther's, not Tiger-I.

I have nowhere read that any Tiger was assembled by slave labour, only that skilled workers were used.

Really, why was sand found in oil filters for HL 230 engines? why does Jentz talk about semi-diluted labour? haven't you seen the photos of Tiger-II restoration in Switzerland? there were evidences of Italian labour being used.

Early Tiger-II had so many faults that were demolished without being used, this just saws what a bad design it was, miles behind of Pz-III.

Finally, I can't help noticing that its mkenny and me the ones who keep bringing sources with extracts

Thrawn I had not noticed the diagram before I sent the message, I will have a look in more detail, thanks for that.

 

[m kenny]

That picture has become pretty famous amongst some people, only problem is no'one knows where its from or wether we're looking at a penetration at all. Furthermore we know nothing about what gun supposedly inflicted the damage seen.

Not so.

US 79th Infantry Division, 315th IRgt, 813 TD Btn 749th TBn was the opposition on 28/8/44
The location was in front of Sailly near Mantes on the Seine just west of Paris.
A couple of TII's from both SS 101/501 and Heer 503 were also lost in and around this area.


Paris is just to the East

Sailly is in the top right-hand corner below

This map is from Bruno Renoult's book.

Oh really ? I beg to differ:

JS-2 K'oed by a Tiger Ausf.E by s single rond through the front turret:

same as this frontaly penetrated Tiger II turret (the one refered to above)

The 503 combat history says it was hit 5 times frontaly on 26.8.44 whilst in action against US troops near Fontenoy. Now as well as the 5 hits you see in the above pic there are another 5 not visible in the shadow on the lower bow plate I presume the photo above was taken after the tank was knocked out in this position.
I would say the information about the hits was just the caption writer counting the gouges rather than first hand information about the action. In the 503 book the pic with 10 hits is dated 16.8.44 and the one with 5 hits 26/8/44! It is not the only contradiction in the book and I presume the book was not properly edited before release.

In his book '45 Tigre en Normandie' Didier Lodieu writes about the 28th August:

Un veritable ouragan de fer et de feu enveloppe les quatre mastodontes de la 3/503 le Tiger 301 est touche puis brule Quatre members de lequipage reussisent a s'en sortir mais le cinquieme. le radio Ricke est blesse. Ill meurt un peu plus tard.

I make that:

A real hurricane of steel and fire envelops the four beasts of 3/503. Tiger 301 is hit and burns. Four members of the crew manage to escape but the fifth, the radio operator Ricke is wounded. He dies a short while later.


Below the same Tiger with a fake deflection painted on to the glacis.

15 JS-2's knocked out frontally from a distance of 1,500m by Tiger Ausf.E's from the GrossDeutchland Division in August 1944:

The photo is a montage. It has been manipulated and is not an accurate representation of the scene. Not only that but so far I have seen 3 different dates and locations given for it.
Soren says August 1944.
Squadron /Signal book 'Soviet Panzers In Action' says "Caption reads "These JS-1 heavy tanks were destroyed by "Panthers" of the division "Grossdeutchland" during a German counter-attack near Konigsberg, East Prussia, February 17, 1945

Wydawnictwo book ''Grossdeutschland Vol II' says April 1945 and location is Romania.
There is no evidence of a penetration on the front of the tank hull. A chunk of the hull top near the drivers visor has been blown off but then so has the gun and mantlet. It is impossible to say where it was hit and penetrated.
Short answer is the date and location are not know nor is the situation and the photo is faked.

Are you kidding me? Does it need to say from which angle each tank was knocked out??? They were ambushed alejandro! Do you know how an ambush works? Usually it doesn't happen from the front, I can tell you that. Also it just so happens that there are pictures of the Tigers lost there actually, and guess what ALL where knocked out from the side or rear.

In TIC I (page 75/76 hardback or page 65/66 softback) there are 3 TII photos (only 2 in the paperback) said to be from this action. In no case is it possible to see a penetration and Schneider never mentions side hits in the text. It is not true to say there are photos of side penetrations on any Tiger. The 3 pics in TIC are the only photos of these Tigers known to me and if Soren has information on others then he should share it and we can all see for ourselves. This claim is pure invention.

 

[m kenny]

Pretty much every break down experienced by Tiger units was caused by either lack of oil, laco of spare parts, lack of regular maintenance or too brutal a treatment inflicted by a novice driver.

 

[Soren]

Despite what M kenny claims this picture is not a fake, it might have been cropped, but it is not fake:

Here's another picture from the same scene (note pentration of front upper hull):

 

[Soren]

Lets see what "expert" Coronel G.B. Jarrett wrote:

The engine room compartment was quite like the Panther and the engine was identical - the HL 230 of 690 Hp. This fact probably was the undoing of the Tiger Tank, as it certainly was badly under powered. A Dr. Arnold seen by the author in Germany, who was one of the main designers of the Tigers for Henschel, claim - they were trying to increase the Hp and unless they increased the size of the engine compartment to permit installation of a heaver engine, they could not improve the power situation very much. It, in a sense had them stymied. Dr. Arnold also complained that this situation arose from having Rommel insist that the Tiger be furnished for front line duty, some 6 months before they were ready,and that they had to use the 690 Hp Panther engine. Rommel, having "der Fuhrer's" ear had wanted to get a gun, like in the earlier Ferdinand, but in a 360 degree turret. This had been one of the leading reasons for the development of so large a tank, and based on the success of the Panther (47 tons), the Tiger had been presumed to also be successful.

In the opinion of the author, any tank the size of the King Tiger is a mistake. The Panther could go many palces the King Tiger couldn't, bridges as just one example, and yet its gun could do fully 85% of the damage possible to the Tiger's 88. As fas as Allied tanks were concerned, as seen in the ETO, the Panther's high velocity 75 was ample."

Is it that surprising?

Don't know why you posted that, fact is still that the engine compartment setup was different in between the Panther Tiger Ausf.B.

Ho-ho you have photos too? do you that those combats took place over more than a day? maybe the Tiger-II were ambushed for more than a day then.

Yes I have photos, and they just shows side penetrations thats all.

Really, why was sand found in oil filters for HL 230 engines? why does Jentz talk about semi-diluted labour? haven't you seen the photos of Tiger-II restoration in Switzerland? there were evidences of Italian labour being used.

Sand in oil filters has nothing to do with slave labour on the tank production line. Oil filters were manufactured elsewhere. And that Italian labour was used does not mean it was slave labour, skilled italian workers worked for Germany throughout the war.

Early Tiger-II had so many faults that were demolished without being used, this just saws what a bad design it was, miles behind of Pz-III.

So many faults? What faults? And of these faults which were attributed to bad design?

I am really looking forward to this... esp. seeing as the Tiger Ausf.B was by far the most advanced tank put on the battlefield during the war.

Finally, I can't help noticing that its mkenny and me the ones who keep bringing sources with extracts

I have provided both sources and extracts, hat you choose to ignore them is not fault.

 

[m kenny]

Let the viewer decide if it is a penetration or a catastrophic internal explosion.

Do you have any views on the different locations and dates given?
August 1944?
Feb 1945?
April 1945?
Are you saying it is only' a little bit' faked?

Yes I have photos, and they just shows side penetrations thats all.

Please please post them or failing that the book that has them and I will post them

 

[alejandro_]

Sand in oil filters has nothing to do with slave labour on the tank production line.

No, it probably finished there by accident, even if report says "sabotage". Maybe German workers took a stroll in the beach and the sand ended in the pockets.

Oil filters were manufactured elsewhere.

So? its still a tank component.

Please please post them or failing that the book that has them and I will post them

Can't wait to see this one.

So many faults? What faults? And of these faults which were attributed to bad design?

Weak engine for weight, badly designed exhaust, problematic final drive, overweight, short range. Is it that surprising? initially Tiger-II was supposed to be lighter, but then Hitler stepped in. Somehow I do not expect to see a rational design if an irrational head intervened in it.

the Tiger Ausf.B was by far the most advanced tank put on the battlefield

Which authors say this? taking into account that the design was simplified and inherited components from Panther, I can't see how.

m kenny, thanks for those summaries, the one on the Tiger-II front penetration is amongst the most complete. Can you tell me the book which talks about the engines? its looks worth a read.

I have provided both sources and extracts, hat you choose to ignore them is not fault.

I am still waiting for quote on where Jentz states that rpm reduction did not affect mobility, used of only very experienced labour... and I do not think I am the only one.

 

[Soren]

No, it probably finished there by accident, even if report says "sabotage". Maybe German workers took a stroll in the beach and the sand ended in the pockets.

Learn english before you get ahead of yourself. I never said that sand in the oil filters weren't caused by sabotage, I said it has nothing to do with slave labour on the tank production line. The oil filters were simple designs which could be assembled by unskilled labour, the tanks were not.

I am still waiting for your source stating that slave labour was used to assemble any Tiger tank.

So? its still a tank component.

You clearly have no clue how these machines were built or where.

Weak engine for weight

With a pulling power of 1,850 Nm I wouldn't call it weak.

, badly designed exhaust,

How so exactly? be specific.

problematic final drive,

Nope, not if proper regular maintenance was done and the tank was driven by an experienced driver.

overweight,

The more armour you put on a tank, the heavier it gets.

short range.

The tank weighed 68.5 tons, and yet it had a road range of 120 to 170 km.

Is it that surprising? initially Tiger-II was supposed to be lighter, but then Hitler stepped in. Somehow I do not expect to see a rational design if an irrational head intervened in it.

Aah yes, Hitler, just how much exactly of the tank did he design? Oh yeah thats right, not a single piece. Hitler just put forth his wishes, which in short was for a new heavy tank mounting the FlaK41. The designers made the rest of the work

Which authors say this? taking into account that the design was simplified and inherited components from Panther, I can't see how.

The design was not simplified, it was infact according to some overly complex. And the Panther was a complex design as-well.

The fact still stands, the Tiger Ausf.B is the most advanced tank to see service during WW2. Infact the US were so impressed by the state of the art steering mechanism semi automatic transmission that they incorperated it in their future tank designs such as the M46, 47 48 Patton series of tanks. The Tiger Ausf.B, along with the Panther, also featured the most advanced hydraulic suspension system mounted on any tank during the war, providing unrivalled floatation and stability whilst negotiating rough terrain.

I am still waiting for quote on where Jentz states that rpm reduction did not affect mobility.

Use you heard for a minute here; Does Jentz say anywhere that decreasing the max rpm from 3,000 rpm to 2,500 rpm had any negative effects on mobility at all? Let me answer that for you: NO. And the reason he doesn't is because it ZERO negative effects on the mobility, and that I might add for some very basic reasons anyone knowledgable about tanks will know.

You on the other hand alejandro did claim that mobility suffered, which ofcourse is completely and utterly false, but you are welcome to try and substantiate your claim. But seeing as you don't even know the relationship between the torque horsepower I can't say I expect you to understand what really defines how mobile a tank is...

So allow me to repeat what I've already said once:

The Tiger Ausf.B was despite its' massive weight in actual fact a very mobile tank, capable of negotiating larger obstacles and steeper gradients than most other tanks of the period. This is often overlooked however, and certain people tend to focus all of their attention on all the issues the tank experienced as a result of lacking oil, spare parts skilled personnel.

The Tiger Ausf.B vs the Sherman M4A3 in terms of battelfield mobility:

Tiger Ausf.B:

Max fording Depth = 1.6 m
Max vertical Obstacle = 0.85 m
Max trench crossing = 2.5 m
Max gradient climbing = 35 degrees
Minimum turning radius = 2.08 m (i.e. Pivoting)
Ground pressure = 0.76 kg/cm^2
Ground clearance = 0.5 m
Average cross country speed = 20 km/h
Top speed = 41.5 km/h


Sherman M4A3:

Max fording Depth = 0.91 m
Max vertical Obstacle = 0.61 m
Max trench crossing = 2.3 m
Max gradient climbing = 30 degrees
Minimum turning radius = 19 m
Ground pressure = 1.07 kg/cm^2
Ground clearance = 0.43 m
Average cross country speed = 20 km/h
Top speed = 48 km/h

 

[m kenny]

Srill no sign of the photos that (it is claimed) show the Tigers with clear side penetrations.
Is there a problem that prevents you sharing them with us?

Here you will find the most complete collection of photos of sPzAbt 501's TII's.
http://www.tiif.de/thread.php?threadid=15&sid=6504285f58b9a3084b5f5b66f163e7b0

There are no pictures that show side penetration and in fact photos of these TII's are rare indeed.

You said earlier:

Yes I have photos, and they just shows side penetrations thats all.

That is photos (plural) and though my instincts tell me this is not possible I am prepared to withold my judgement until you clarify the situation.

.Can you tell me the book which talks about the engines? its looks worth a read.

The book is the Spielberger/Doyle Schiffer book

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0764327801/?tag=dcglabs-20


Which is a translation of

http://www.amazon.de/dp/3613027836/?tag=dcglabs-20

 

[m kenny]

I am still waiting for your source stating that slave labour was used to assemble any Tiger tank.

Early in 1935, Henschel began manufacturing Panzer I tanks. During World War II in 1939-1940 it began large-scale production of the Panzer III, and the Tiger I from 1941. Henschel was the primary manufacturer of the Panzer VI. During 1945 the company had 8000 workers working in two shifts each of 12 hours. The company used slave labour extensively. The company's factories were among the most important bomber targets and were nearly completely destroyed.

From:
Henschel Son - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Also:

Fieseler Werke Kassel

Forced Labor Camps in Kassel

(to provide workers for the factories )


Camps for foreigners in Kassel (1940 - 1945)

HolländischeStraße The camp was the first of a large number (eleven were detected) by the firm of Henschel und Sohn - mostly procured on their own land or lease contracts - set up for foreigners. It was listed as Henschel Residential Camp I, sometimes called the camp midfield (because it is in close proximity to the work of the company Midfield Henschel) was set up as slave laborers and dormitories 1940th It was located between the Holländische Straße and the Struthbachweg. It was more than 2,000 workers, mostly from Western countries set up. Like almost all the big camps are closed civilian workers and prisoners of war departments, a department in separate barracks. In an air raid in October 1943 it has been largely destroyed, the forced laborers were housed in tents and several weeks later, such as school buildings (Fasanenhof school, Paul von Hindenburg-Schule in Schulstraße). The power exercised in the camp from the camp commander or the chief officer in conjunction with the work of protecting the company Henschel, which could in turn be based on foreign "employees". The work of protecting the company in 1940 Henschel was formally appointed as the auxiliary police, so that the members of police officers powers similar to those entitled. In addition, the "host plant" (NSDAP activists intervened in the operation) in the "care" of foreigners.

The camp Lower King Street 99 (Henschel Residential Camp IV), also called the Polish women's camp, which was an established exclusively for women who contributed at Henschel forced labor camp..............

The camp monks Brickyard Mountain (Henschel Residential Camp VI).....................

The small mining camp monks Wielandstraße (Henschel-residential camps VII.............

The camp monks mountain Stockbreite (Henschel-residential camps VIII).......... Several thousand people (we suspect 2ooo to 3ooo) from various nations have been accommodated in this pure camp. ....................

The relatively large bearing monks mountain Ihringshäuserstraße as Henschel residential camps IX probably not until mid-1943 built, was designed exclusively for "Western workers" (Italy, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg). It was southeast of the Ihringshäuserstraße......

the next camp for foreigners, was built by the firm of Henschel, the so-called Henschel residential camps XI was outside of Kassel............

The Matt mountain camp was probably the second biggest camp for foreigners (behind the monks, mountain camps) of Kassel in the war. In the 54 barracks were at the same time more than 6000 people from many countries

Henschel was one of the biggest users of slave/forced/guest (pick your euphemism) workers and though this is a general overview it is impossible to claim none of these people were involved in Tiger construction.

 

[Kurfürst]

These early hits show an entry and exit hole

No. 25 that went in an out is the Tiger's own 8,8cm KwK 43 L/71... 8)

The other two are Soviet 122mm and 100mm rounds, though its worth noting that the hit at no. 24 obviously assisted penetration of no. 25 round (that being the 122mm round), and that if you look at the place of the hit, its at the opening for the gunner's sight (where armor resistance was less due to the opening, but normally covered by the gun blende, which has been removed for the tests)

 

[alejandro_]

Learn english before you get ahead of yourself.

Thats very polite.

You clearly have no clue how these machines were built or where.

Ho-ho our super engineer does know the difference between assembly and manufacturing, bring him a medal!

With a pulling power of 1,850 Nm I wouldn't call it weak.

Maybe we should go to English lectures together. Have you noticed the words "for its weight"?

How so exactly? be specific.

Don't you have Jentz book on the Tiger-II. I am away and can't pick up the phrase. You will have to wait, its on a section talking about all the things going wrong. Report dated Januway 1945.

Aah yes, Hitler, just how much exactly of the tank did he design? Oh yeah thats right, not a single piece. Hitler just put forth his wishes, which in short was for a new heavy tank mounting the FlaK41. The designers made the rest of the work

This just shows your superficial understanding of things. Hitler asked in Tiger-II design to increase front armour to 180mm, and 150mm IIRC on glacis. And the design was using an engine for a medium size tank! in reality Tiger-I should have been able to mount a Flak 41 gun, but someone (probably Dr Porsche) ordered ring to be reduced from 200cms to 190cms. What did this mean? Flak 41 could not be mounted i.e A new design would be needed... more contracts, money and so on. Tiger-II story is indeed complicated.

The Tiger Ausf.B, along with the Panther, also featured the most advanced hydraulic suspension system mounted on any tank during the war, providing unrivalled floatation and stability whilst negotiating rough terrain.

Which no one ever used again, by the way.

Infact the US were so impressed by the state of the art steering mechanism semi automatic transmission

Panther had this too... so no state of the art any more.

You on the other hand alejandro did claim that mobility suffered, which ofcourse is completely and utterly false, but you are welcome to try and substantiate your claim.

Lets see Jentz for the third time:

Maximum speed for the Tiger-I decreased to 37.8km/h and for the Tiger-II to 34.6km/h after November 1943 when HL 230 motor was regulated not to exceed 2500rpm.

Tiger-I and II combat tactics, by Jentz. There you go, now you can change that comparison with M4A3.

I am still waiting for your source stating that slave labour was used to assemble any Tiger tank.

Again:

Really, why was sand found in oil filters for HL 230 engines? why does Jentz talk about semi-diluted labour? haven't you seen the photos of Tiger-II restoration in Switzerland? there were evidences of Italian labour being used.

This is often overlooked however, and certain people tend to focus all of their attention on all the issues the tank experienced as a result of lacking oil, spare parts skilled personnel.

Can you tell me which units lack skilled personnel? I have never come accross any direct reference for this.

Thanks mkenny for the reference.

Henschel was one of the biggest users of slave/forced/guest (pick your euphemism) workers and though this is a general overview it is impossible to claim none of these people were involved in Tiger construction.

Semi-deluted could be a choice...