USA and DDR penetration about D25T gun

[Juha]

Hello Kurfürst
ah typical to you
on Italians, we were talking on how Germans behaved towards Italians, and I know that their behaviour towards Italian PoW were on some areas really disgusting, for ex on Ionian Islands, mass executions etc. Now have you some info on how Allied handled their Italian PoWs, slave labour?

On Churchill, you seem to agree with most that road speed after all had some importance on mobility, yes?

Juha

 

[m kenny]

An unsourced statement from wikipedia..?

Supported by an online article showing the large number of camps ran by Henschel in the Kassel area.
Did you miss it?

Also:

Fieseler Werke Kassel

Forced Labor Camps in Kassel

(to provide workers for the factories )


Camps for foreigners in Kassel (1940 - 1945)

HolländischeStraße The camp was the first of a large number (eleven were detected) by the firm of Henschel und Sohn - mostly procured on their own land or lease contracts - set up for foreigners. It was listed as Henschel Residential Camp I, sometimes called the camp midfield (because it is in close proximity to the work of the company Midfield Henschel) was set up as slave laborers and dormitories 1940th It was located between the Holländische Straße and the Struthbachweg. It was more than 2,000 workers, mostly from Western countries set up. Like almost all the big camps are closed civilian workers and prisoners of war departments, a department in separate barracks. In an air raid in October 1943 it has been largely destroyed, the forced laborers were housed in tents and several weeks later, such as school buildings (Fasanenhof school, Paul von Hindenburg-Schule in Schulstraße). The power exercised in the camp from the camp commander or the chief officer in conjunction with the work of protecting the company Henschel, which could in turn be based on foreign "employees". The work of protecting the company in 1940 Henschel was formally appointed as the auxiliary police, so that the members of police officers powers similar to those entitled. In addition, the "host plant" (NSDAP activists intervened in the operation) in the "care" of foreigners.

The camp Lower King Street 99 (Henschel Residential Camp IV), also called the Polish women's camp, which was an established exclusively for women who contributed at Henschel forced labor camp..............

The camp monks Brickyard Mountain (Henschel Residential Camp VI).....................

The small mining camp monks Wielandstraße (Henschel-residential camps VII.............

The camp monks mountain Stockbreite (Henschel-residential camps VIII).......... Several thousand people (we suspect 2ooo to 3ooo) from various nations have been accommodated in this pure camp. ....................

The relatively large bearing monks mountain Ihringshäuserstraße as Henschel residential camps IX probably not until mid-1943 built, was designed exclusively for "Western workers" (Italy, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg). It was southeast of the Ihringshäuserstraße......

the next camp for foreigners, was built by the firm of Henschel, the so-called Henschel residential camps XI was outside of Kassel............

The Matt mountain camp was probably the second biggest camp for foreigners (behind the monks, mountain camps) of Kassel in the war. In the 54 barracks were at the same time more than 6000 people from many countries

I added this:

Henschel was one of the biggest users of slave/forced/guest (pick your euphemism) workers and though this is a general overview it is impossible to claim none of these people were involved directly in Tiger construction.

Maybe you missed it?

IF you are trying to throw in the 'slave labour' BS as a rubber arguement, you would better be prepeared to support and quantify it with detailed and sourced statements, rather than discrediting your own claim by trying to google up a source and only manage to find a wiki article after you have made the particular statement...

There you go again. Ignoring the camps article that is clearly headed
Forced Labor Camps.

 

[m kenny]

We can go into detail on the origins of the Tiger II photos soren trawled from the net only when he provides a photo showing a Tiger pentrated from the side
So far he has not shown a single photo that in any way back up his original claims:

I can tell you that. Also it just so happens that there are pictures of the Tigers lost there actually, and guess what ALL where knocked out from the side or rear................
Yes I have photos, and they just shows side penetrations thats all.................................

He was lying and to try and cover up this deliberate deception he is forced into posting random Tiger images. It is impossible to say with any certainty where the wrecks he posts are located. Some are located (by Schneider) at Lisow but he is not the best source on locations. Soren also posted 2 views of the same tank.
No matter because he has yet again failed to provide a single pic of a side penetrated Tiger II from Lisow.

 

[Soren]

Unlike what m kenny here claims I haven't been lying, that is something he is guilty of himself, and not just on this forum. The pictures I presented I found on my harddrive and uploaded them. I have them in a folder for themselves. I checked in various books the origins of the photos as-well to be sure that I had the right ones (That takes time, something ignorant people can't comprehend). Some pictures have two completely different discriptions, but it said Lisow so I presented it.

M kenny however is clearly incapable of getting a message across into his head, as I had made it abundantly clear that I wasn't going to respond any of his posts anymore, why? Because he's rude, childish incapable of admitting his own mistakes, a good example of his rude behavior is calling me a liar for only upholding the promise I had made to him earlier.

And like I said, of all the photos which there are of this incident the only thing present on them is side penetrations or no visible penetrations at all. For further confirmation according to the Soviets themselves the Tigers were knocked out from the sides, and thats again what the Germans say.

Furthemore very few JS-2's were actually present at Lisow, the attack was mostly carried out by T-34/85's hidden AT guns.

 

[Soren]

Regarding slave labour once more. What m kenny once more fails to understand is that there is ZERO evidence of slave labour being used for assembling Tiger tanks, furthermore simple logic points toward that it wasn't the case as Tiger was a very complex and expensive machine to build; Not exactly something ýou have malnurished slaves take care of! So I have asked for sources on their claim, neither alejandro or m kenny have provided any though. So should we call them liars? They clearly said something they knew was untrue, cause they didn't have anything to base their theory on, no pictures no documents no nothing. Alejandro also claimed that the Tiger Panther featured the same transmission steering mechanism, which is completely untrue, so again a lie?

 

[alejandro_]

I am back at home, thus I have access to most of my data base and books.

Unlike what m kenny here claims I haven't been lying, that is something he is guilty of himself, and not just on this forum. The pictures I presented I found on my harddrive and uploaded them. I have them in a folder for themselves.

Then, if you had the photos already. Why did you claim they only shown side penetrations? Why did you claim I say there were no photos of IS-2 with frontal penetration when I was clearly referring to IS-2 mod 1944.

Alejandro also claimed that the Tiger Panther featured the same transmission steering mechanism, which is completely untrue, so again a lie?

My mistake, nor the first nor the last. This debate touches on a large number of subjects and I was typing fast, I already corrected the point.

And again, directly from Jentz, the Panther ended up having most of its issues ironed out and became a reliable tank.

This comes from Jentz:

Technical details - The Pz.Kpfw.IV, V and VI have proven themselves to be good. However, the Panther burns astonishingly quickly. The lifespan of the Panther´s engine (1400 to 1500kms) is considerably higher than that of the Panther´s final drives. A solution is urgently needed!

This is a report from Guderian to Hitler on 28th July 1944 i.e more than a year after Panther was introduced in service. The book is "Panzer Truppen: The Complete Guide to the Creation Combat Employment of Germany's Task Force-Formations, Organizations, Tactics, Combat Reports, Unit Strengths", by Thomas L. Jentz, pag 176 (1996).

The data I posted regarding Panther performance in November 1944 was not that better neither... so, when did those problems were ironed out and what is the source to state that "Germans in the end got a very reliable tank out of the Panther."

He was lying and to try and cover up this deliberate deception he is forced into posting random Tiger images. It is impossible to say with any certainty where the wrecks he posts are located. Some are located (by Schneider) at Lisow but he is not the best source on locations. Soren also posted 2 views of the same tank.

This ending was expected. I have done quite a bit of research on that battle, and opened a thread in tank-net, which I guess is probably where Soren got the photos from (with the mistakes as Juha pointed out). I put some information from Bergstrom and Max Hastings but details are hard to find.

For further confirmation according to the Soviets themselves the Tigers were knocked out from the sides, and thats again what the Germans say.

Where do the Soviets say that Tigers were knocked out from the side? have you confirmed that IS-2 were not around?

AFAIK no Tiger tanks were assembled by slave labour, they had highly skilled labourers for that.

This is what Jentz mentions:

Now, we can discuss about the meaning and interpretation of "semidiluted" or "foreign" armour, but the quality of late was Panzers was not exactly increasing (See note below).



As I did not get any answer on the effect of rpm reduction in changing gear mechanism I also uploaded the data from Jentz:

As expected, a reduction in rpm gives the engine (and therefore tank) less flexibility when using gears.



Also, HL 230 engines at the end of the war did have some serious quality issues:



By the way, that report makes reference to both Panther and Tiger. Jagdtigers were also quite in a bit of trouble:

"The extremely difficult road marches caused a large number of breakdowns for the Jagdtiger. Engines and final drives proved to have defects and were too weak in construction. Sabotage by foreign workers in the factories was also suspected, since metal shavings were found in many engine oil filters."

Combat history of SJgPz 653, page 274 (not sand by the way).

 

[Soren]

Again a reduction in max rpm does nothing other than change the top speed of the tank as long as it doesn't drop below the max torque range. So that the HL230 engines' max rev limit was reduced from 3,000 to 2,500 rpm had no negative effect on the tanks' mobility in any way what'so'ever. Also the chart in Jentz's book does not show that there was any less flexibility, it only shows the natural effect of max speed in every gear being reduced. But all this is completely redundant as max torque (i.e. pulling power) was provided at 2,100 rpm. The only reason behind the reduction in max rpm of the HL230 was to increase the engine life.

Also what good is it that you have some of Jentz's books if don't read all that is written in them alejandro? Read the rest as-well. Reading Jentz's books on the Panther he quite clearly explains that in the end the Panther had most of its issues ironed out, not in one sentence but explained over several pages dealing with the evolution of the design. The Panther's poor reliability in the field was, like that of every other German tank from late 44 to 45, the result of lack of oil, spare parts, regular maintenance and skilled drivers. The tank itself was reliable enough, and considering the circumstances under which it had to operate it did remarkably well, and the exact same can be said about the Tigers.

And as for the sabotage suspected with the oil filters, wouldn't be out of place, but again these were simple parts which could be assembled by unskilled labour. The construction of a Tiger tank itself however required skilled labour, and there is no evidence what'so'ever which points to any Tiger having been assembled by use of slave labour. It simply didn't happen, and pure logic also tells us that it couldn't cause they simply wouldn't have known what to do.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Enough!

Another great thread with lots of good information going down the fricken drain because people can't act like adults!

Apparently people ignored me the last time that I said that we would not tolerate you all destroying threads with your childish behavior! Why is that? Do you not think that you will be removed from the site, so that other members can actually discuss and learn things on this forum without having to put up with your bullshit?!

There are no more warnings, I am tired of this ****!

 

[alejandro_]

Again a reduction in max rpm does nothing other than change the top speed of the tank as long as it doesn't drop below the max torque range.

Again, this is very superficial. I don't think you grasp the concept. For the start, in which gears you can reach 2100rpm? just think of a car. Do you know why the speed is lower in every gear?

When we talk about engines we refer to power for performance, not max torque. Power related torque and angular velocity of the engine. You can have less torque than maximum but at a higher angular velocity, thus getting more power. Thats how power in HL 230 goes down from 690 to ~600.

Do you have a car? how do you refer to the engine performance? power or torque.

I already explained problems with Panther final drive and transmission, which have nothing to do with war situation/

I asked for sources before and no answers yet:

Why did you claim I say there were no photos of IS-2 with frontal penetration when I was clearly referring to IS-2 mod 1944.

When did those problems were ironed out and what is the source to state that "Germans in the end got a very reliable tank out of the Panther."

AFAIK no Tiger tanks were assembled by slave labour, they had highly skilled labourers for that.

For further confirmation according to the Soviets themselves the Tigers were knocked out from the sides, and thats again what the Germans say.

I have given sources, extracts and IMO concise data. All I ask is the same.

To end up I will post this text from Spielberg book on Panther:

During a conference in the Heereswaffenamt on 10 February 1944 the opinion was expressed that the Panther I no longer met the requirements in light of the experience gained on the Eastern Front. The panther should be completely redesigned and, as already mentioned, receive the Tiger steering mechanism and final drive.

How can some one claim that Panther was very reliable when a complete redesign is needed!

 

[m kenny]

CLAIM:

Are you kidding me? Does it need to say from which angle each tank was knocked out??? They were ambushed alejandro! Do you know how an ambush works? Usually it doesn't happen from the front, I can tell you that. Also it just so happens that there are pictures of the Tigers lost there actually, and guess what ALL where knocked out from the side or rear.
Yes I have photos, and they just shows side penetrations thats all.................................

Can anyone point me to a side penetration in any of the following pics?

The last 2 photos are the same tank

I checked in various books the origins of the photos as-well to be sure that I had the right ones (That takes time, something ignorant people can't comprehend). Some pictures have two completely different discriptions, but it said Lisow so I presented it.

Can you tell me which book gave this caption as Lisow please.

It tends to pop up in Polish Publications The Wydawnictwo title 'Tigers in Action 1944' (2006) has it on page 55 but the caption places it many miles and many months away.
I am pretty sure it first appeared in another Wydawnictwo title 'Kielce 1945' (2003) on page 14. Again it is placed in the earlier 1944 sPzAbt 501 debacle which gave the Soviets the TII they tested their guns on-as well as the TII now on display at Kubinka.
I presume that is where you got it but the location you say goes with it is clearly a later invention.

[
If you peruse your copy of Kielce 1945 you will find a pretty detailed description of the fighting on Jan 13th along with several maps.

.

Furthemore very few JS-2's were actually present at Lisow, the attack was mostly carried out by T-34/85's hidden AT guns.

For your information page 46 says an IS II Regiment was present.

 

[Juha]

Hello m_kenny
thanks for the Lisow map, it shows that 424 didn't attack alone but alongside with 17. PzD.

Soren
metal shavings in oil filter usually means that there is something wrong inside the engine not in oilfilter.

Juha

 

[alejandro_]

The link below (Page 278) gives data on Italian POW owrking in Germany. Their treatment was not very nice. The photo giving evidence of Italian workers in Tiger-II manufacturing showed a massive "Italia" in a component. I can't remember if it was drilled but did not look very impressive.

Hitler's foreign workers: enforced ... - Google Books

 

[Juha]

Hello alejandro
thanks for the very informative the link. I have general info on the appalling conditions Italian PoWs lived in Germany in Lamb's War in Italy 1943-45 but it isn't very exact where they worked, simply "in factories and mines" plus of course also in agriculture.

Juha

 

[Vincenzo]

i tryed some times but never i can see page 278...

 

[Kurfürst]

Hello Kurfürst
ah typical to you

Yeah-yeah, get to the point, rhetorics isn't exactly your strong suit anyway..

on Italians, we were talking on how Germans behaved towards Italians, and I know that their behaviour towards Italian PoW were on some areas really disgusting, for ex on Ionian Islands, mass executions etc.

Actually the subject is wheter so-called slave labour was actually present in Tiger II production, wheter they were actually employed in its assembly or were just helping out. On the slightly related note, we are talking about sweeping unreferenced statements made by Juha and m kenny about this alleged use of forced labour.

Now have you some info on how Allied handled their Italian PoWs, slave labour?

Juha

I know several hundred thousends of Italian PoWs were used as slave labourers in Britain's agriculture. Its pretty common knowledge, the Brits even had some slightly related (romantic) movie with the theme.

I am not sure about their conditions, or the death toll during their imprisonment. Perhaps there are accounts from the Italian survivors.

On Churchill, you seem to agree with most that road speed after all had some importance on mobility, yes?

Well if its significantly different from your typical tank or the other vehicles you have to work with then yes, but we are specifically discussing the the case of the Tiger, for which:

a, there wasn't significant difference compared to other tanks
b, reducing the revs didn't effect either torque (general mobility on terrain) or typical cruise speeds.

ie. if you think about it, they certainly didn't march on road in a general sense at top speed of 41 km/h and 3000 rpm before either, probably just about 2/3s due to engine wear, overheating and fuel economy considerations. Now if you usually cruise at about 2000 rpm, it doesn't matter at all wheter your engine is limited at 2500 or 3000... I am pretty sure that if my car would be regulated from 6500 down to 5000, I wouldn't notice at all - I rarely rev it up to even 4000 (unless I feel the urge ) , and certainly it is very rare to cruise at more than 2500 in the city.

 

[alejandro_]

Actually the subject is wheter so-called slave labour was actually present in Tiger II production, wheter they were actually employed in its assembly or were just helping out.

Jentz makes reference to "semi-diluted, mostly foreigner". We can discuss about the meaning and interpretation, but to me it does not sound like "the most skilled labour", as it was stated in this debate. I guess that if sabotage took place in mechanical components, its because this labour was not very well treated. Can we agree on this?

a, there wasn't significant difference compared to other tanks

There was in power to weight ratio (except for Churchill).

ie. if you think about it, they certainly didn't march on road in a general sense at top speed of 41 km/h and 3000 rpm before either, probably just about 2/3s due to engine wear, overheating and fuel economy considerations

Of course, but I do not think your car has a power to weight ratio of ~10CV/ton. And if you do I would like to know what kind of vehicle you got!

 

[Kurfürst]

There was in power to weight ratio (except for Churchill).

And..? It was also painted with much more vivid colours than say, American or Soviet tanks. The French ones may be an exceptions from that, I heard they really liked vivid colours too, though the pattern was different.

 

[dunmunro1]

I know several hundred thousends of Italian PoWs were used as slave labourers in Britain's agriculture. Its pretty common knowledge, the Brits even had some slightly related (romantic) movie with the theme.

I am not sure about their conditions, or the death toll during their imprisonment. Perhaps there are accounts from the Italian survivors.

Axis PoW were not used as "slave labour" in the UK, Commonwealth or USA. PoWs were given the opportunity to work for a wage, as per the various international conventions on the treatment of PoWs, and many Axis PoWs availed themselves of this opportunity, but they were not compelled to do so, as the food and conditions in the camps were relatively good. Here's one story:

Thunder Bay Historical Museum Society, prisoner of war art, krakhofer

and another:

POW Camps in UK - 1 to 50

 

[Juha]

Hello Kurfürst
Quote:" On the slightly related note, we are talking about sweeping unreferenced statements made by Juha and m kenny about this alleged use of forced labour."

If you bothered to read what I wrote, I gave the info I had and in my message#93 gave the source. And there is no "alleged" in the use of Italian Pows as forced labour by Germans, simply read a book on subject, and you'll see. If you want more exact source info, it's the Chapter 6 "Mussolini's New Army, and the Fate of 600,000" in the Lamb's book. That 600,000 means those Italian PoWs used as forced labour by Germany.

Quote:" ie. if you think about it, they certainly didn't march on road in a general sense at top speed of 41 km/h and 3000 rpm before either, probably just about 2/3s due to engine wear, overheating and fuel economy considerations. Now if you usually cruise at about 2000 rpm, it doesn't matter at all wheter your engine is limited at 2500 or 3000…"

Generally I agree and usually that is so but in the war there are situations that one needs all the speed one possible can squeeze out of one's vehicle. Arriving a few minutes later at dominating feature might have grave consequences, look for ex. what happened to 20. PzD in late June 44 just SE of Bobruysk when some heavy Soviet tanks got into a wood near the eastern end of Bobryusk railway bridge before it. No Tigers there, only an example how sometimes time is essential.

 

[Marcel]

The construction of a Tiger tank itself however required skilled labour, and there is no evidence what'so'ever which points to any Tiger having been assembled by use of slave labour. It simply didn't happen, and pure logic also tells us that it couldn't cause they simply wouldn't have known what to do.

Hmmm, I don't know about the Tiger being build by slaves or not, but I believe this reasoning (in bold) is false as among the slave-labourers were quite some skilled craftsmen and technicians. "Slave-labourers" doesn't necessary mean "unskilled". I know this from first hand as my wife's grandfather was one of them.