USS Yorktown (CV-5) v. HMS Illustrious v. Soryu?

[diddyriddick]

As alluded to earlier, both British and American designs proved the shape of things to come, so the Essex and moreso the Midway class incorporated features from each.

I'd have to give the nod to the Yorktown. The strike capability was tremendous!

 

[fastmongrel]

As an all round balanced design the Yorktown has to be the best. Though the Soryu does look kind of cool and mean.

I did a bit of reading on HMS Illustrious and wow she took a beating. In various actions she was hit time and time again. In the Pacific she was hit by 2 kamikaze but carried on flying operations after repairs at sea. She was finally knocked out of action by a Kamikaze near miss that caused serious hull damage. Even then she was able to sail back to Australia for repairs. I imagine if the war had continued she would have been patched up and carried on the fight to the bitter end what a ship.

HMS Illustrious (87) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Amsel]

As an all round balanced design the Yorktown has to be the best. Though the Soryu does look kind of cool and mean.

I did a bit of reading on HMS Illustrious and wow she took a beating. In various actions she was hit time and time again. In the Pacific she was hit by 2 kamikaze but carried on flying operations after repairs at sea. She was finally knocked out of action by a Kamikaze near miss that caused serious hull damage. Even then she was able to sail back to Australia for repairs. I imagine if the war had continued she would have been patched up and carried on the fight to the bitter end what a ship.

HMS Illustrious (87) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think the HMS Illustrious was a great vessel. Those ships sure did take a beating in WWII.

 

[comiso90]

A wood deck has to be easier to repair especially away from skilled labor.

Somebody who has more time than i do....
Please go through the American carrier battle damage and ask the question if an armored deck would have helped... escort carriers included.
An armored deck wont protect against torpedoes...
could in some cases an armored deck be worse?... containing the explosion below the deck instead of venting outward?

.

 

[Amsel]

The USS Arizona had a well armored deck and it didn't help her. She repelled most of the bombs but one penetrated and that was all it took. If a heavily armored Battleship can go down then a carrier with all its ava fuel is most vulnerable.

 

[Messy1]

I would have to go with Yorktown as well. I think her greater number of aircraft more than makes up for not having a armored flight deck. The Yorktown and her sister ships were plenty tough everywhere else.

 

[R Leonard]

Yorktown, hands down.

Rich

 

[vikingBerserker]

I think an amoured deck would have helped the USS Franklin.

 

[syscom3]

I think an amoured deck would have helped the USS Franklin.

Its impossible to prove .... but more than a few US carriers were probably saved by having a large air contingent on board.

 

[parsifal]

Whilst the Yorktown had a theoretical total of 90 aircraft, her operational maximum was in fact closer to 72. The Soryu had a theoretical maximum of 72, but an operational maximum of 63 aircraft.

Contrary to either the Japanese or the US, the Illustrious had a theoretical maximum of only 40, and this was the number she fought most of the war with. However, in 1944, it was found that by maintaining a permanent deck park, she could operate up to 52. This was the CAG that the Illustrious class carried into the final battles in the Pacific

So in the end, the operational maximums of the three classes are: Yorktown 72, Soryu 63, and Illustrious 52.

In terms of defensive capability there is no comparison. The Illustrious class, and the light fleet carriers that followed them and adopted the same closed hangar system, were far superior to anything the US possessed, including the Essex classes until long after the war. There were reasons why most post war minor navies went for British Carriers and US aircraft after in their postwar navies

Had Soryu survived the Midway debacle, her defensive capabilities would have been significantly improved as were all the Japanese carriers. though never as well protected as either the US or the british carriers, the Japanese after Midway were quick to adopt CO2 gas lines, and other damage control measures that significantly reduced the risk of fires that had so badly devastated all the carriers at Midway. In 1944 this problem returned when the Japanese were forced to utilise highly volatile unrefined crude from Balipapaan and Tarakan. This fuel was apparently much more volatile than refined fuel, and the result was the repeat debacle at Phillipines Sea.

Given also that the Brit Carriers could operate in weather conditions that the other nationalities could not, and that she was equipped and her air group trained to operate at night, ther is really no issue for me....the illustrious wins hands down.....in a fight under the right conditions, she would make a meal out of either of the other two.

In 1940 her Fulmars and Swordfish, operating at night, or in the soupy conditions of the North Atlantic are going to outclass the F2as, the TBDs and the Vindicators then available to the USN by a wide margin. In 1941 and '42, the US Carrier achieves a notable superiority because of the wing folding SBDs, Avengers and Wildcats she was carrying. In 1943, the advantage swings slightly back in favour of the Brit carrier, because of her Corsairs that she now has embarked

 

[Glider]

I think its worth mentioning that the last of the Illustrious Class the Implacable and Indefatigable operated 72 aircraft during the war as they had an extra half halger deck.

 

[fastmongrel]

How about comparing light fleet carriers The US Independence class, Japanese Taiyo, British Colosuss. They were all compromises to get flat tops in service quickly and all carried nearly the same numbers of aircraft.

 

[Lucky13]

Think that I'll put my money on the Independence class...

 

[Amsel]

Whilst the Yorktown had a theoretical total of 90 aircraft, her operational maximum was in fact closer to 72. The Soryu had a theoretical maximum of 72, but an operational maximum of 63 aircraft.
The number of aircraft the Yorktown carried into Midway was 75

Contrary to either the Japanese or the US, the Illustrious had a theoretical maximum of only 40, and this was the number she fought most of the war with. However, in 1944, it was found that by maintaining a permanent deck park, she could operate up to 52. This was the CAG that the Illustrious class carried into the final battles in the Pacific
About 50% of the USN carriers maintained a permanent deck park. The idea was thought up in the early 1930's.

So in the end, the operational maximums of the three classes are: Yorktown 72, Soryu 63, and Illustrious 52.
Yorktown's max was 75 that could be maintained by a full complement of AV fuel as well as armaments, while the Illustrious was fitted to maintain 40 aircraft. Due to the obselete armored carrier idea that traded deck space, range and maintance capabilities for an armored deck.

In terms of defensive capability there is no comparison. The Illustrious class, and the light fleet carriers that followed them and adopted the same closed hangar system, were far superior to anything the US possessed, including the Essex classes until long after the war. There were reasons why most post war minor navies went for British Carriers and US aircraft after in their postwar navies
The interesting thing about the open hanger system is that it was designed with naval aviation in mind. Something seriously lacking in the RN when the Illustrious was built was a mind toward aviation being the new weapon of naval war. The idea was caught before the war started thankfully and they did not build another CV like it. The Midway class was laid down with an open hanger so the WWII piston aircraft can be warmed up ready to depart at all times,which may be dangerous defesively but actually increases the offensive capabilities of the carrier. That is what the USN wanted, an aviation minded fleet. The trade off of armor for strike capability plagued the Illustrious.

Had Soryu survived the Midway debacle, her defensive capabilities would have been significantly improved as were all the Japanese carriers. though never as well protected as either the US or the british carriers, the Japanese after Midway were quick to adopt CO2 gas lines, and other damage control measures that significantly reduced the risk of fires that had so badly devastated all the carriers at Midway. In 1944 this problem returned when the Japanese were forced to utilise highly volatile unrefined crude from Balipapaan and Tarakan. This fuel was apparently much more volatile than refined fuel, and the result was the repeat debacle at Phillipines Sea.

Given also that the Brit Carriers could operate in weather conditions that the other nationalities could not, and that she was equipped and her air group trained to operate at night, ther is really no issue for me....the illustrious wins hands down.....in a fight under the right conditions, she would make a meal out of either of the other two.
Actually the USN did develop night carrier operations.

The Illustrious would find it very difficult to make meal out of a USN CV because it was designed as awarship and not a strike carrier. The USN naval air operations were top of the line and even the seaminded RN had to adopt them. If the Illustrious was at Midway then I fear that the Japanese might have won that battle. 75 sorties versus 40 is quite a big stretch, especially considering the USN used divebombers which the RN did not develop in time for some reason. The USN used divebombers as scouts and if an enemy carrier is spotted then they could plant their bombs into the enemy and rtb while the carrier still had a large force for more strikes to finish the job. The large flight deck, three fast elevators, as well as the open hanger design would ensure that a larger force would be in the air faster, and thats what mattered in carrier to carrier operations.

In 1940 her Fulmars and Swordfish, operating at night, or in the soupy conditions of the North Atlantic are going to outclass the F2as, the TBDs and the Vindicators then available to the USN by a wide margin. In 1941 and '42, the US Carrier achieves a notable superiority because of the wing folding SBDs, Avengers and Wildcats she was carrying. In 1943, the advantage swings slightly back in favour of the Brit carrier, because of her Corsairs that she now has embarked

The Illustrious proved that the RN was not up to speed in naval air combat which WWII proved was the new age of naval warfare.

 

[comiso90]

Contrary to either the Japanese or the US, the Illustrious had a theoretical maximum of only 40, and this was the number she fought most of the war with. However, in 1944, it was found that by maintaining a permanent deck park, she could operate up to 52. This was the CAG that the Illustrious class carried into the final battles in the Pacific

So in the end, the operational maximums of the three classes are: Yorktown 72, Soryu 63, and Illustrious 52.

Launch, recovery and re-arm times with a permanent (read "cluttered") flight deck.... less elevators and catapults..

yikes... By the time the got the last plane in the air, the first would be ready for refueling....

An exaggeration of course but they had to have some pretty low turn around times. A second strike can be decisive in a fleet battle.

.

 

[Glider]

The Illustrious proved that the RN was not up to speed in naval air combat which WWII proved was the new age of naval warfare.

This is a little missleading. I do not disagree with you when you say that going from two hanger deck (Ark Royal) to one (Illustrious) was a mistake, but they did get a lot right Heavy AA guns, Multiple directors, a significant number of Light AA guns, increased protection of the hanger area. One plus of the Illustrious is that she could take the extra weight of the changes needed for war better than the Yorktown class. The Enterprise was topheavy and needed to ahve a bulge fitted to maintain stability.
The RN operated at night and in very poor conditions before any other navy but in aircraft design and fleet tactics the USN and IJN were ahead of the RN.

As mentioned earlier the later versions of the Illustrious did operate more aircraft the Implacable operating 81 aircraft during the war which was a good number by any standards.
Personally I could never work out why they designed the Illustrious class, a modified version of the Ark Royal would have been cheaper and available sooner, plus of course she carried more aircraft than the Illustrious.

 

[Amsel]

Hello Glider, I think alot of it comes down to doctorine at the time. I am in no way disparaging the RN but the early war RN doctorine was not conducive to great results for the sea battles of the Pacific. I am not being misleading, but that is my belief. And neither was the USN, but the amount of sorties deployed by the Yorktown , Hornet, and Enterprise dealt a decisive blow to the IJN that they could never recover from. A trade of the Yorktown and a destroyer for four IJN carriers and a heavy cruiser. That is a victory of epic proportions that opened the worlds eyes to the new frontier of naval combat.

 

[Amsel]

This is a little missleading. I do not disagree with you when you say that going from two hanger deck (Ark Royal) to one (Illustrious) was a mistake, but they did get a lot right Heavy AA guns, Multiple directors, a significant number of Light AA guns, increased protection of the hanger area.

The Yorktown could not be refitted for obvious reasons but the Enterprise by wars end was fitted with 8-5 3/8's guns, 40-40mm Bofors, and 50- 20mm Orlikon's as her hanger defense. The Bofors are arguably the best AA of the war for ship protection.

 

[renrich]

CV5 was not a Midway class carrier. Those came later. The Yorktown class were the pick of the litter, at that time, particularly in the PTO. The British carriers were not well fitted for the Pacific and they needed armored flight decks because they had no fighters that could defend them until they got them from the US, thanks to the RAF. The Japanese carriers were not designed as well as the Yorktown class as far as getting strikes into the air. That acted as a force multiplier for the Yorktown class.

 

[syscom3]

CV5 was not a Midway class carrier. Those came later. The Yorktown class were the pick of the litter, at that time, particularly in the PTO. The British carriers were not well fitted for the Pacific and they needed armored flight decks because they had no fighters that could defend them until they got them from the US, thanks to the RAF. The Japanese carriers were not designed as well as the Yorktown class as far as getting strikes into the air. That acted as a force multiplier for the Yorktown class.

Theres also the intangibles that really add to a carriers quality, like its ability to maintain and repair the air wing far from its base, ability for the carrier to stay at sea, etc.

That further add's to the Yorktown class's reputation.