VT-8 TBF at Midway

MIflyer · Mar 22, 2018

Does anyone know if this photo of a damaged TBF shows the sole surviving aircraft from VT-8 at Midway?

I don't know where I found that photo.

Peter Gunn · Mar 22, 2018

Wasn't VT-8 off Hornet still using Devastators? This might be one of the six ( or was it eight? ) TBF's that were sent to Midway before the battle, with only one surviving. That's how I remember the caption for this photo but can't remember where I saw it.

Although, according to Widipedia there's a picture of it labeled 8-T-1 as the only survivor of Torpedo 8 at Midway. Wiki

JJWilson · Mar 22, 2018

It's pretty amazing to me that Midway didn't ruin the Navy's ideas on Torpedo Bombers, while they bailed on the obsolete Devastator soon after, the Avenger went on to have quite the career in the Pacific, and beyond. Good judgement not to abandon the avenger.......

buffnut453 · Mar 22, 2018

Peter Gunn said:
Wasn't VT-8 off Hornet still using Devastators? This might be one of the six ( or was it eight? ) TBF's that were sent to Midway before the battle, with only one surviving. That's how I remember the caption for this photo but can't remember where I saw it.

Although, according to Widipedia there's a picture of it labeled 8-T-1 as the only survivor of Torpedo 8 at Midway. Wiki

VT-8 had just started re-equipping with the Avenger when the Midway operation came up. Consequently, the bulk of VT-8 continued operating their Devastators from Hornet while the first crews undergoing conversion to the Avenger were sent to Midway (I suspect they weren't carrier landing qualified at that stage). Thus there were 2 "sole survivors" in VT-8, George Gay from the Devastators and the sole Avenger that returned to Midway after their single mission.

MIflyer · Mar 22, 2018

The new Avengers operated by VT-8 were airplanes and crews that literally missed the boat and did not get on board before the Hornet left. Only one survived to make it back to Midway, with only the pilot alive; the two rear gunners were killed. So it is not true to say that Ens George Gay was the only survivor of VT-8 to go to war at Midway, since that TBF pilot survived as well.

Two great books that provide some vital corrections to the record: "A Dawn Like Thunder" and "The Unknown Battle of Midway."

Of course Lt Cmdr John Waldron knew they probably were not coming back and left the third crewman for the TBDs back on the Hornet. So those were survivors, too, but they did not see combat there with VT-8.

The rebuilt VT-8 flew from the Hornet to Guadalcanal and provided vital airpower there. The ground crews even built a "new" TBF out of parts from two wrecked ones.

And most TBF's and TBM's never launched a torpedo. They were used mainly to drop bombs. Hilarious account I read of a couple of TBM pilots flying off the escort carriers in that battle off Samar near Leyte Gulf. When the IJN ships came at them, to within their traffic pattern they were told they needed to launch and drop torpedoes at them. "Us?" they said, "Drop torpedoes? No figgin' way! We only do bombs!" But they did fly with torps and one of them got separated from the rest of the group and accidentally sank an IJN cruiser when it appeared before him.

JJWilson · Mar 22, 2018

MIflyer said:
The new Avengers operated by VT-8 were airplanes and crews that literally missed the boat and did not get on board before the Hornet left. Only one survived to make it back to Midway, with only the pilot alive; the two rear gunners were killed. So it is not true to say that Ens George Gay was the only survivor of VT-8 to go to war at Midway, since that TBF pilot survived as well.

Two great books that provide some vital corrections to the record: "A Dawn Like Thunder" and "The Unknown Battle of Midway."

Of course Lt Cmdr John Waldron knew they probably were not coming back and left the third crewman for the TBDs back on the Hornet. So those were survivors, too, but they did not see combat there with VT-8.

The rebuilt VT-8 flew from the Hornet to Guadalcanal and provided vital airpower there. The ground crews even built a "new" TBF out of parts from two wrecked ones.

And most TBF's and TBM's never launched a torpedo. They were used mainly to drop bombs. Hilarious account I read of a couple of TBM pilots flying off the escort carriers in that battle off Samar near Leyte Gulf. When the IJN ships came at them, to within their traffic pattern they were told they needed to launch and drop torpedoes at them. "Us?" they said, "Drop torpedoes? No figgin' way! We only do bombs!" But they did fly with torps and one of them got separated from the rest of the group and accidentally sank an IJN cruiser when it appeared before him.

That is quite a funny account indeed, I would say that after Midway, the Avenger wasn't a Torpedo bomber anymore. The Avengers still occasionally carried torpedoes finding some unlucky victims, but I would that the Avenger was one of the best all-purpose aircraft the U.S possessed, and certainly the Navy's best. Anti-Submarine warfare, Recon, Ground Support, and many more other capabilities made the Avenger one of the most versatile aircraft the U.S possessed. Not to mention it's awesomeness in both it's aesthetically pleasing airframe, and bad A sounding Radial Wright R-2600 Twin Cyclone radial engine. A Truly impressive bird, and an even more impressive story behind it.

MIflyer · Mar 22, 2018

It was some time after Midway before we even started producing decent torpedoes. The book "Hellions of the Deep" describes the inept USN torpedo factory and how it was replaced by an academic-industry team who first produced the air dropped acoustic homing torpedo. After that the USN gave them the job of improving their other torpedoes and developing new ones, while cutting back on the govt factory; shortly after the war the govt operated factory was closed.

The Govt factory had a craftsman approach and an emphasis on spending most of the money on civilian pay. By really working hard in 1942 they said they could produce 50 torps a month. The actual wartime requirement was 1500 a month. The Govt factory's response to that sobering fact was, "You are wasting too many of them."

Well, when you have to shoot 21 of them to get one that works, you are going to use a lot more.

Shortround6 · Mar 22, 2018

JJWilson said:
It's pretty amazing to me that Midway didn't ruin the Navy's ideas on Torpedo Bombers, while they bailed on the obsolete Devastator soon after, the Avenger went on to have quite the career in the Pacific, and beyond. Good judgement not to abandon the avenger.......

The Navy had bailed on the Devastator back in 1939, That is why they were build Avengers. The last production batch of Devastators (29?) was built several years after the rest simply to make up for attrition (crashes) until they could get the Avengers into production and into service.

MIflyer · Mar 22, 2018

Here's something of possible interest.

fubar57 · Mar 28, 2018

From this site...Grumman TBF Avenger

"Badly damaged Grumman TBF-1 (Bureau # 00380) Avenger of Torpedo Squadron Eight (VT-8), at Midway, 24-25 June 1942, prior to shipment back to the United States for post-battle evaluation. This plane was the only survivor of six VT-8 TBFs that had attacked the Japanese carrier force in the morning of 4 June"

MIflyer · Mar 28, 2018

Yep, that is the one, just as I suspected. Most of the damage was observable from the rear left side. Both of the gunners were killed and if you'd look at the damage you'd not wonder why.

Attached is one of my favorite Midway shots.

Thanks!

davparlr · Mar 28, 2018

The TBFs, along with four torpedo equipped B-26s were sent from Midway island. It must be pointed out here that, while the SBDs famous attack destroyed the Japanese carriers, there several attacks prior against the Japanese that, while not tactically successful, contributed greatly to the over all mission success. These various attacks came in sequence and kept the Japanese off balance, forcing maneuvering away from the wind direction slowing aircraft recovery and launching, preventing aircraft placement on the decks and affecting weapons and fueling activities. The B-26s were particularly disconcerting with one flying down the flight deck of the Akagi straffing anyone on deck, and another barely missing crashing into the Akagi's bridge, which would have killed Nagumo. The bravery of the American airmen during these attacks impressed the Japanese. While not successful in their assigned mission, their overall effect contributed significantly to the victory at Midway.

MIflyer · Mar 28, 2018

If those B-26's had been doing low level bombing as in the Battle of the Bismark sea a year later then things could have been very different.

Barrett · Mar 29, 2018

I attended the Midway 50th anniversary in DC, which included "The Sole Survivor" repeating his oft-told fable about being...The Sole Survivor. He repeated it to an audience of about 200 Midway vets and historians, and you could hear muttering in the room. Afterward Bert Earnest, pilot of the surviving TBF, came up the aisle and saw me. He grinned and said "I want you to meet my radioman." Feisty little guy stuck out his hand and said, "Hi, I'm Harry Ferrier. THE THIRD SOLE SURVIVOR OF TORPEDO EIGHT." G Gay never changed his tune, far as I know. BTW, for a detailed examination of his versions of watching the SBDs attack the Japanese carriers, look up "What Did George Gay See" by Midway historian Jon Parshall. It's more specific than my simple time-distance formula, which roughly put the carriers 12-15 miles below the horizon from Gay's position...

JJWilson · Mar 29, 2018

It's unfortunate that the tale of those B-26's is widely unknown, like many other battles of WW2, heroism sometimes went unnoticed, or is underappreciated because of countless other, dare I say, more important acts of heroism and bravery such as the Avengers of VT-8.

tlott01 · Mar 29, 2018

At least one squadron knew how to drop torpedoes from Avengers...

Amazon product ASIN 0451239911View: https://www.amazon.com/Intrepid-Aviators-American-Greatest-Battleship/dp/0451239911

Barrett · Mar 29, 2018

The WW II torpedo scandal should have scuttled some careers but it didn't. The Bureau of Ordnance, which designed the prewar and early-war models, insisted that sub skippers particularly were misusing the weapons. Not until late 43 were empirical tests conducted that revealed the flaws, including erratic depth settings and malfunctioning detonators. One of my late friends commanded Enterprise's VT-10 and said of 31 (?) torpedoes his crews dropped, none ran "hot, straight and normal." The best products came from industry, such as the "Fido" acoustic-homing model particularly useful against subs.

I used to have semi-frequent contact with a U-boat historian. He said that the Kriegsmarine ordies who designed defective detonators went to prison. I had to tell him that ours made admiral. That included Fleet Admiral Leahy, FDR's briefcase carrier.

MIflyer · Mar 30, 2018

Note also that members of the RI delegation opposed any attempt to correct things at "their" torpedo factory. They also opposed any attempt to create an alternative source of supply. Those politicans should have spent some time in the hoosegow, too.

When the Fido not only was developed in record time but actually sank a U-Boat on its first use in combat (making the USN the first military organization to successfully use an air launched guided missile in combat), the USN turned to that same academia/industry team to redesign their other torpedoes.

But this incredible debacle apparently was remembered so fondly that the US Government repeated it almost exactly with the Space Shuttle program.

MIflyer · Mar 31, 2018

By the way, while VT-8 did not score any hits at Midway one of the later TBD attacks did. Reportedly, a TBD launched torpedo actually did hit an IJN carrier and failed to detonate. The warhead broke off and sank and the torp later was used by some IJN crewmen as a life raft when they had to abandon their ship.

The sub-launched torps had a problem with failing to detonate also. Turned out the geniuses at the Naval Torpedo Factory had for some reason redesigned the contact detonator so that the firing pin had to transmit its force through a 90 degree angle. The pin was not strong enough to do that and in a direct hit would fail. A glancing blow at an angle was more likely to cause the warhead to detonate.

T308 · Mar 15, 2021

It's believed that the failed torpedo that hit the Kaga was from the USS Nautilus, not from a TBD. The hit occurred after the SBD strikes around 14:00 and the floating air cask was seen and recorded at that time.

VT-8 TBF at Midway

1st Lieutenant

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Master Sergeant

Airman

Captain

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Major General

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General

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Senior Master Sergeant

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Senior Airman

Airman

Airman

Senior Airman

1st Lieutenant

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Recruit

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