Waiting to be found

[MONDARIZ]

Hi Ghilt,

Great work saving the PV-2, "Harpoon Annie" looks happy.

Although its a daunting task to care for an old aircraft (without the money three, or some organisation behind you), thats the way a lot of aircraft have been preserved through the years - by people who care.

Its a lot easier to see what you can do, now that you have her. Maybe you can't provide for a "return to flight" restoration, but that does not mean, that you can't keep it from deteriorating, and thats a big part of aircraft presevation.

There are books around, which are dealing with aircraft presevation on all levels. I'm not sure how much you know about it, but since you say, that you have met a lot of people, I'm sure you have got some pointers.

For long term ground storage, its best to get her of ground (on jacks), but that might not be very economical. There are also various treatments, that you can do to stop further deterioration. If you havn't yet, you should look into it soon.

Now that "Harpoon Annie" is safe, you can just wait for some change in life, that will enable you to see her taxi, and maybe one day she will fly.

I actually started this thread for just that reason. To discuss planes that needed to be found by people like you.

I would love to see more pictures and hear a bit more about her.

All the best

MONDARIZ

 

[Marcel]

Ghilt, good work mate. If only I lived in the US I would like to see it.

 

[pbfoot]

There a great number of wrecks to be found in the north of Canada and Alaska , in Goose bay there were about 200 crash sites within 80miles including such things as B17's 24's 36's here is a sight that shows some of them
Abandoned Plane Wrecks of the North

 

[Pittanker]

Hi all I am new to this site, But I am in the process of building a JU-87 from scratch. I can tell you first hand that those birds do exist out there. I went to an avaiation school auction and found an L-17 Navion. It was in exact militray configuration, served with the USAF in Korea, NY and ended up at Westpoint. Price I paid $500 for the complete bird. Dont just hope!!!!! DO IT

 

[MONDARIZ]

Building a JU-87 from scratch, thats a mighty project. Hope you have a few friends to help you.

I would say a ball-park figure is 150.000 man hours (thats about 17 years non-stop work).

Do you have any pictures of it?

I would love to see the project. I'm not big into replicas, but its great some people are. Like the Me-262 they are building now.

 

[MONDARIZ]

There a great number of wrecks to be found in the north of Canada and Alaska , in Goose bay there were about 200 crash sites within 80miles including such things as B17's 24's 36's here is a sight that shows some of them
Abandoned Plane Wrecks of the North

Yes, thats a great site.

But if its C-47, C-54, or C-46 you are looking for, there are plenty sitting around airports. I have been using Google Earth to peek at airports around the world, and there are a surprising number of those birds still flying. Others are just waiting for the scrapper on the outskirts of airfields.

Try any central american airport.

 

[Heinz]

Wow good luck with projects guys!

 

[A4K]

Ghilt and Pittanker! All the best for your projects guys!
For anyone who tells you you're mad, you'll find two warbird nuts who'll be grateful for your work and patience, not to mention the future generations who will be able to see something so special, instead of just a rusting hulk.

Hat's off to ya's for your courage and dedication

 

[Njaco]

Heres one for Charles. Just found this interesting site.

Side Scan Sonar Systems - Marine Sonic Technology, Ltd.

 

[Messy1]

The Soplata article is great! Wish more people had the foresight to save many more of these old birds!

 

[A4K]

Great site Nyaco! what do you reckon the odds are of recovering thet Privateer?

 

[timshatz]

Odds are not good on the Privateer. It's very odd but the US Navy still claims any aircraft that have crashed, ditched or otherwise been abandoned, as Navy Property. So, if you do pull one up, it is only a matter of time before somebody from the Dept of the Navy shows up and claims it as theirs. Has lead to some pretty nasty court cases.

The Air Force, on the other hand, has no claim on any of it's wrecks after the site has been sanatized for human remains and weapons.

 

[MONDARIZ]

The US air force lost their records in a fire in 1961 and have accepted, that they have little possibility of claiming aircraft from before that year (they are technically abandoned because ownership can't be fully established).

The US navy on the other hand, have all their records. AFIK the navy have no authority to "abandon" material that belong to the federal government. That means that even if an aircraft was "stricken" from the records during the war, its technically not abandoned by the navy, as they legally can't make that call.

Thus any aircraft that ever flew in the navy, is still considered navy property (even if it has been lost for 60 years, and the navy have made no attempt to find, or recover, it), and its something they have (and will again) taken to court - and won!

Navy Shipwrecks and Aircraft Losses

Legally they are also entitled to decline recovery, even if its normal maritime practice to salvage/recover vessles in distress (such as an aircraft under water). That means that if you ask for recovery permission, it will be declined, and if you simply just recover it (without asking), the navy will take possession of the aircraft.

I have no idea, why the navy insists on this, other that they technically can't give away federal property. The federal government don't even care anymore, but the navy does.

Here is a famouse case:

International Aircraft Recovery v. United States (11th Cir. 2000)

 

[A4K]

I can't believe there are no remaining TBD-1's above sea-level! You'd think it would be in the Navy's interest to preserve it's history., I'm sure if it was a Royal Navy aircraft, it'd have been pulled up and restored years ago!

 

[DOUGRD]

Has anyone ever documented all the aircraft sitting in the English Channel after the end of WW2? I have always wondered about this. How many times have you read about aircraft ditching or crashing in the Channel? I'll bet there's quite a few.

 

[timshatz]

Probably hundreds of them dougrd, maybe even thousands. Think that it was a major theatre of war for 5 full years and you have every mark of every aircraft used in full front line operation out there. Spitfires, Hurricanes, Me-109s, Me-110s, FW-190s, to say nothing of the bombers, fighters, transports, miscellaneous, ect. US, UK, Axis, everybody who came with an air force left something in the channel.

Hell, Glenn Miller is somewhere under that body of water.

 

[DOUGRD]

Probably hundreds of them dougrd, maybe even thousands. Think that it was a major theatre of war for 5 full years and you have every mark of every aircraft used in full front line operation out there. Spitfires, Hurricanes, Me-109s, Me-110s, FW-190s, to say nothing of the bombers, fighters, transports, miscellaneous, ect. US, UK, Axis, everybody who came with an air force left something in the channel.
Hell, Glenn Miller is somewhere under that body of water.

It's funny you mentioned Glenn Miller because when I first started working for "Webers Aero Repair" here in Alexandria, MN. 2 1/2 years ago I got in on the restoration of a Norseman which is the type aircraft Glenn Miller was flying to the continent in.

 

[MONDARIZ]

The English Channel and north sea (along the Dutch, German, Danish, Norwegian and the English coast) still produce "new" wrecks every year.

The surge in recreational diving and the growing interest in aviation archeology (using side scan sonar and other equipment now in a affordable price range), has helped locating many missing wrecks.

Unfortunatly many have been mangled by fishing trawls, or simply deteriorated due to corrosion and strong currents. Saltwater is not a great media for storing aircraft.

It would be a great idea to collect those wrecks in a database, but many diving clubs (and wreck hunter teams) keep their finds pretty private, so it would be hard to get the information. Also, most saltwater wrecks are somewhat beyond restoration.

What I personally would find interesting, is a database of wrecks located in European freshwater lakes. There might not be as many as in the sea, but at least they could be in better condition.

Around here (Denmark) we had a He-111 ditching in a big lake, staying afloat long enough for the crew to escape, then sinking. I don't know if anybody has tried to locate it (or even if the Germans recovered it, as they normally would - but there are suggestions that they didn't). I would love a weekend with a side scan sonar on that lake

Anyway, a good place to find wreck information, is diving websites, or even just email your local diving club.

Should we try to post what we can find (with pictures)?

 

[wilbur1]

Great idea, someone posted a site here on another thread that was in the pto that had a ton of pics of japanese ships and stuff gotta remember where its at

 

[MONDARIZ]

Here is a start on the Saltwater wreck collection.

B17- Bomber


Douglas TBD-1 that the Navy refuse to be salvaged