war crimes commited by wehrmacht

Njaco · Sep 16, 2008

Stas, I don't think there is any argument what Hitler wanted his army to do. And armies of all sides participated in atrocities throughout the war. But there was a distinct difference between the Waffen SS and other branches of the SS.

So, it's just few bad guys managed to kill 17 millions civilians on the territiry of the USSR? Is that what you're saying?

Those guilty include Stalin.

Thorlifter · Sep 16, 2008

Erich said:
sorry but this topic needs to be closed, it will in short time go nowhere with a visciousness that we really do not need here

I think I'm going to agree with Erich..........

Look, I'm not an admin, but I would strongly urge you guys to walk a tight rope in this thread. Just some friendly advise.

syscom3 · Sep 16, 2008

Soren, an SS unit is an SS unit.

They came across civilians they didnt like and they either executed them or sent them to the camps.

Soren · Sep 16, 2008

Stasoid,

Have you got any clue how many jews, communists slavic people were killed in concentration camps ?? It was the far majority!

And yes, considering the amount of men needed to run a concentration camp they were indeed VERY effective when it came to getting rid of people, but they were manned by other branches within the SS such as the Totenkopfverbände, and NOT the Waffen SS. The Waffen SS were combat troops and had nothing to do with the concentration camps, it is important you understand this.

The Waffen SS consisted of regular people just like any other army, but they were members of the nazi parti and followers of its ideology. They believed they fought for a good righteous cause, which is understandable as hardcore propoganda was forced down their throats each and every day. And note that, just like the Wehrmacht, the Waffen SS weren't told of the concentration camps and mass extermination of jews for very obvious reasons: It could result in a massive drop in moral, mass mutiny and a cease in belief in the state rule. The other branches within the SS were there for this very reason, including the shooting squads which were formed to conduct tasks you just couldn't get any others to do.

In short it was the SS Totenkopfverbände, Allgemeine SS Germanic SS which were the real bad guys, true slime on earth, carrying out some of history's worst crimes against humanity.

Soren · Sep 16, 2008

syscom3 said:
Soren, an SS unit is an SS unit.

They came across civilians they didnt like and they either executed them or sent them to the camps.

That isn't true syscom3. The Totenkopfverbände, Germanic SS Allgemeine SS stood for the concentration camps and mass executions, NOT the Waffen SS. Is that really so hard to comprehend ?

Amsel · Sep 16, 2008

To some people every German is Hitler. I find it amazing how many cannot differentiate between a murderer and a good soldier. Anti-German propaganda has been on the rise for 20 years. It seems that social engineering is working and common sense has flown the coop.

When armies face each other the men on both sides have the same virtues and dreams for the most part.

m kenny · Sep 16, 2008

2nd SS, Oradour-sur-Glane, 1st SS, Stavelot ect

JugBR · Sep 17, 2008

Amsel said:
To some people every German is Hitler. I find it amazing how many cannot differentiate between a murderer and a good soldier. Anti-German propaganda has been on the rise for 20 years. It seems that social engineering is working and common sense has flown the coop.

When armies face each other the men on both sides have the same virtues and dreams for the most part.

the irony; hitler was austriac...

Freefalling · Sep 17, 2008

Soren said:
That having been said the Waffen SS itself definitely did commit a number of war crimes, involving burning down towns and shooting civilians, but mostly these were provoked by Partizan attrocities. A number of villages were burned down and the inhabitants shot after the Germans had found the mutilated bodies of their fellow soldiers with their eyes cut out, ears ripped off castrated by Partizans. This often drived them straight into bloodrush and rampage against nearby villages where they suspected the Partizans were situated. And these things still happen today, namely in Iraq Afghanistan where US soldiers have gone beserk against civilians a number of times already after having been provoked by the taliban.

As already mentioned war is hell!

At the risk of hijacking the thread how can you compare the Waffen SS to US soldiers of today? What evidence do you have of US troops repeatedly going "beserk" against civilians in Afghanistan? Your comparison is poor and I believe you to be wrong.

Something that I may have missed (if it was already discussed in the thread, I apologize) is that societal norms and values were a bit different in WWII than they are now. We're looking at the events through our eyes and experiences and not those from 70 years ago. I don't say this to justify any actions, but to try and understand them. War and our thought processes concerning it have changed a great deal since then.

seesul · Sep 17, 2008

On August 29,1944, when 9 4 engine bombers were shot down over my town, the wehrmacht soldiers killed few crewmembers on the ground after they bailed out. One of them, wounded on his neck, was hanging on a tree on his parachute. One German soldier shot him death by pistol. Another one went out from a woods, unhurt, with his hands up and they shot him death by machine gun.

Then the wehrmacht soldiers collected the RESTS of the US KIA airmen, posed with them and toke a lot of picters, smiling and celebrating the VICTORY... No one else sadists can make such things. There exist few pictures of this event as the photographer from our town made few copies of those pics and showed them after the war was over. A friend of mine is going to scan them for me so as soon as I have them I´ll post them.

KrazyKraut · Sep 17, 2008

seesul said:
On August 29,1944, when 9 4 engine bombers were shot down over my town, the wehrmacht soldiers killed few crewmembers on the ground after they bailed out. One of them, wounded on his neck, was hanging on a tree on his parachute. One German soldier shot him death by pistol. Another one went out from a woods, unhurt, with his hands up and they shot him death by machine gun.

Then the wehrmacht soldiers collected the RESTS of the US KIA airmen, posed with them and toke a lot of picters, smiling and celebrating the VICTORY... No one else sadists can make such things. There exist few pictures of this event as the photographer from our town made few copies of those pics and showed them after the war was over. A friend of mine is going to scan them for me so as soon as I have them I´ll post them.

Sorry to disappoint you but how about Canadian troops that basically tortured German POWs to death by having the completely exhausted men march through rivers (not allowing them to use the bridges that were right by) until they drowned. And we are talking about pretty high numbers here. Whole groups. How is that any better?

And these allied bomber crews destroyed whole German cities (including for example the town where I was born). Hundred thousands of old men, women and children burnded to their deaths. I don't want to excuse what happened on that instance you talk about, but I try to see it from the perspective of the soldiers then, not with a comfortable 60+ years of peace in between.

B-17engineer · Sep 17, 2008

And when did you hear about that?

KrazyKraut · Sep 17, 2008

The incidence I described above was told in a documentary by former Candian officer directly involved, I'll try to dig it up.

EDIT: Was easy to dig up:
Canadian commander, Jacques Dextraze, recalls:

"I used to tell my men, "Your job is to kill the enemy, that's your principal job. But the minute an enemy comes out with his hands up in the air, you must respect him, and you must protect him, and you must ensure that this man is as protected as your own men."

Yet, he also explains that sometimes it was clear that not all POW's were treated so well:

"We crossed the river - the bridge had been blown up. Take the little city by the rear. Eighty five prisoners we take. I select an officer, "take them back to the P.W. cage". He goes back, making them run, to the bridge that we had...a farmer's bridge that we had come over you know. These guys had been running for a couple of miles. They came to the bridge (bad cut) No no, you don't take the bridge, you swim. Now these guys fell...went into that water you know. Most of them drowned. Imagine having run you know, they had been fighting before, running you know for a couple of miles, and then the water you know. Now, they were picked up by the engineers rebuilding the bridge. I could have been accused of not having protected them. I'm responsible for these prisoners you see. I felt very bad when I saw them all piled up beside the bridge. I didn't like that very much."

Issues : POWs - World War Two

seesul · Sep 17, 2008

KrazyKraut said:
Sorry to disappoint you but how about Canadian troops that basically tortured German POWs to death by having the completely exhausted men march through rivers (not allowing them to use the bridges that were right by) until they drowned. And we are talking about pretty high numbers here. Whole groups. How is that any better?

And these allied bomber crews destroyed whole German cities (including for example the town where I was born). Hundred thousands of old men, women and children burnded to their deaths. I don't want to excuse what happened on that instance you talk about, but I try to see it from the perspective of the soldiers then, not with a comfortable 60+ years of peace in between.

Who said the war crimes were done by Germans only? Me? No way!

I just posted the story that hapen 5 miles away from my born town and father of a friend of mine was the eye witness of this event. Wait until I show you the pics of German soldiers towing the rests of bodies with no heads, the human remains as legs and arms on the ground, posing and smiling...would you do the same from your soldiers perspective 60 years ago? Does such a treatment have anything to do with a soldier´s mind? I´ll sent you a PM when I open this thread...I wanted to gag when I saw those pics for a first time...

I´m very sorry for the WW2 civilian victims of the world...but don´t 4get- no war, no victims...who started the war?

Njaco · Sep 17, 2008

I was going to post a story about some atrocity but I can see this is going to disintegrate into finger-pointing. I think we should take Erich's advice and move on or close this.

The question has been answered.

pbfoot · Sep 17, 2008

KrazyKraut said:
The incidence I described above was told in a documentary by former Candian officer directly involved, I'll try to dig it up.

EDIT: Was easy to dig up:
Canadian commander, Jacques Dextraze, recalls:

"I used to tell my men, "Your job is to kill the enemy, that's your principal job. But the minute an enemy comes out with his hands up in the air, you must respect him, and you must protect him, and you must ensure that this man is as protected as your own men."

Yet, he also explains that sometimes it was clear that not all POW's were treated so well:

"We crossed the river - the bridge had been blown up. Take the little city by the rear. Eighty five prisoners we take. I select an officer, "take them back to the P.W. cage". He goes back, making them run, to the bridge that we had...a farmer's bridge that we had come over you know. These guys had been running for a couple of miles. They came to the bridge (bad cut) No no, you don't take the bridge, you swim. Now these guys fell...went into that water you know. Most of them drowned. Imagine having run you know, they had been fighting before, running you know for a couple of miles, and then the water you know. Now, they were picked up by the engineers rebuilding the bridge. I could have been accused of not having protected them. I'm responsible for these prisoners you see. I felt very bad when I saw them all piled up beside the bridge. I didn't like that very much."

Issues : POWs - World War Two

We were being nice allowing them to cool off after the days activities
Does anybody recall that the Canadian POWS taken in Dieppe were shackled together for a number (6?) of months after the raid and the 165 Canadian POW killed by the German SS in Normandy , remember only 90 were gunned down in Malmedy.

KrazyKraut · Sep 17, 2008

Okay I want to apologize for starting or getting into this kind of finger pointing. That wasn't my intention and I will stop it right here. Seesul, I apparently mistook one sentence in your post.

I have seen horrible pictures of this war a lot, very ****ed up **** far beyond dismembered bodies. It led me into really despising that particular nation's soldiers. But now I'm a little older and I know that it happened the other way around aswell. And I don't believe in collective guilt and subsequent collective punishment, nor should "your nation started the war" or ANYTHING be an apology for committing war crimes.

m kenny · Sep 17, 2008

It is pointless because there are those who can not make the distinction between INDIVIDUAL acts of barbarity and an OFFICIALY Sanctioned policy to dispose of inferior people. There was no Allied order exempting their soldiers from punishment for criminal acts like the German one in Russia.
The number of 'enemy' civilians killed by each nation speak for themselves.

KrazyKraut · Sep 17, 2008

Eh, look at Ilja Ehrenburg for example. And there are a lot of Western Allied orders and propaganda works aiming in the same direction and either willingly accepted or even directly promoted by the military authority.

m kenny · Sep 17, 2008

KrazyKraut said:
Eh, look at Ilja Ehrenburg for example.

What ORDERS did he give?

And there are a lot of Western Allied orders and propaganda works aiming in the same direction and either willingly accepted or even directly promoted by the military authority.

Then quote them here.

To start the ball rolling I give you:

Barbarossa Order

Decree concerning the exercise of military jurisdiction in the "Barbarossa" area and special measures to be taken by the troops.

The armed forces jurisdiction serves primarily the maintenance of discipline.

The further extension of the eastern theater of operations, the battle strategy conditioned thereby, and the peculiar qualities of the enemy, confront the courts of the armed forces with problems which, being short-staffed, they cannot solve while hostilities are in progress, and until some degree of pacification has been achieved in the conquered areas, unless jurisdiction is confined, in the first instance, to its main task.

This is only possible if the troops defend themselves relentlessly against any threat from the enemy population.

The following regulations are, therefore, issued for the "Barbarossa" area (operational area, army group rear area and the area of political administration):

I: Treatment of offenses committed by enemy civilians:

1. Until further notice the courts martial [Kriegsgerichte] and the summary courts martial [Standgerichte] will not be competent for offenses committed by enemy civilians.

2. Guerrillas will be ruthlessly liquidated by the troops, either in combat or in flight.

3. Similarly, all other attacks by enemy civilians on the armed forces, its members and employees, will be suppressed on the spot by the troops, using the most extreme methods, until the assailants are annihilated.

4. Where such measures have been neglected or were not at first possible; persons suspected of an offense will be brought immediately before an officer. This officer will decide whether they are to be shot.

On the orders of an officer, with the powers of at least a battalion commander, collective coercive measures will be carried on immediately against localities from which cunning or malicious attacks are made on the armed forces, if circumstances do not permit a speedy determination of individual perpetrators.

5. It is expressly forbidden to detain suspects in order to transfer them to the courts after the reinstatement of jurisdiction over indigenous population.

6. The commanders in chief of the army groups may by agreement with the competent naval and air force commanders reintroduce military jurisdiction for civilians, in areas which are sufficiently pacified.

For the area of the "political administration" this order will be given by the Chief of the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces.

II. Treatment of offenses committed against inhabitants by members of the armed forces and its employees:

1. With regard to offenses committed against enemy civilians by members of the armed forces and its employees, prosecution is not obligatory even if the deed is simultaneously a military violation or crime.

2. When judging such deeds, it must be borne in mind, whatever the circumstances, that the collapse in 1918, the subsequent suffering of the German people and the fight against national socialism which cost the blood of innumerable supporters of the movement, were caused primarily by Bolshevist influence and that no German has forgotten this.

3. The judicial authority [Gerichtsherr] will, therefore, decide in such cases whether disciplinary punishment is indicated, or whether judicial proceedings are necessary.

In the case of offenses against indigenous inhabitants, the judicial authority will order a court martial only if maintenance of discipline or security of the troops call for such a measure. This applies for instance to serious offenses based on lack of sexual restraint, or resulting from a criminal tendency, or indicating that the troops are threatening to become out of hand. As a rule offenses resulting in the senseless destruction of billets, stores or other captured material to the disadvantage of our forces will not be judged more leniently.

The order to institute investigation proceedings requires the signature of the judicial authority in each individual case.

4. Extreme caution is indicated in assessing the credibility of statements made by enemy civilians.

III. Responsibility of military commanders: Within their sphere of competence military commanders are personally responsible for ensuring that:

1. Every officer of the units under their command is instructed promptly and with the utmost emphasis on the principles set out under I above.

2. Their legal advisers [Rechtsberater] are notified promptly of these instructions and of the verbal information which elucidated the political intentions of the leadership to the commanders in chief.

3. Only these sentences are confirmed which are in line with the political intentions of the leadership.

IV. Security: Once the camouflage is lifted this decree will be classified as "Top Secret" only.
By Order:
Chief of the High Command of the Armed Forces
[Signed] Keitel.

Certified:
[Signed] Dressel,
Major, GSC.

war crimes commited by wehrmacht

what do you think ?

german soldiers just commited war crimes under superior orders.

german soldiers commited war crimes because they was out of control and superiors didnt care about.

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