war crimes commited by wehrmacht

what do you think ?

  • german soldiers just commited war crimes under superior orders.

    Votes: 8 80.0%
  • german soldiers commited war crimes because they was out of control and superiors didnt care about.

    Votes: 2 20.0%

  • Total voters
    10

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

Status
Not open for further replies.
the Commissar Order
On 6th June, 1941, the Commissar Order was issued from the Fuehrer Headquarters as " TOP SECRET. Transmission only by officer ! " and was captioned, "Directives for the Treatment of Political Commissars" It was as follows:

"In the fight against Bolshevism it is not to be expected that the enemy will act in accordance with the principles of Humanity or of the International Law. In particular, a vindictive, cruel and inhuman treatment of our prisoners must be expected on the part of the political Commissars of all types, as they are the actual leaders of the resistance.

"The troops must realize :

"(1) In this fight, leniency and considerations of International Law are out of place in dealing with these elements. They con-stitute a danger for their own safety and the swift pacification of the conquered territories.

"(2) The originators of barbarous Asiatic methods of warfare are the political commissars. They must therefore be dealt with most severely, at once and summarily.

"Therefore, they are to be liquidated at once when taken in combat or offering resistance.

"For the rest the following directives will apply:

"I. Combat Zone

(1) Political commissars who oppose our troops will be treated in accord-ance with the ' decree concerning the application of martial law in the Barbarossa area.' This applies to commissars of any type and grade, even if they are only suspected of resistance, sabotage or of instigation thereto.

Reference is made to the ' directive concerning the conduct of the troops in Russia.'

(2) Political commissars as organs of the enemy troops are recognizable by special insignia-red star with interwoven gold hammer and sickle on the sleeves-(for particulars see ' The Armed Forces of the USSR,' High Command of the Armed Forces/General Staff of the Army, Qu IV, Section Foreign Armies East (II) No. 100/41 secret, of 15th January, 1941, appendix 9 d). They are to be segregated at once, e.g. still on the battlefield, from the prisoners of war. This is necessary to prevent them from influencing the prisoners of war in any way. These commissars will not be recognized as soldiers, the protection of prisoners of war by International Law does not apply to them. They will be liquidated after segregation.

(3) Political commissars who have not committed or are not suspected of hostile acts will not be harmed for the time being. Only after deeper penetration of the country will it be possible to decide whether officials who were left behind may stay where they are or will be handed over to the Sonderkommandos. Preferably the latter should decide on this point.

Page 25

As a matter of principle, in deciding the question whether 'guilty or not guilty,' the personal impression which the commissar makes of his mentality and attitude will have precedence over facts which may be unprovable.

(4) In cases 1 and 2, a short message (message form) about the incident will be sent:

(a) by divisional units to divisional headquarters (Intelligence Officer).

(b) by troops directly under the command of a corps, an army or an army group or a Panzer group, to the respective headquarters (Intelligence Officer).

(5) None of the above-mentioned measures must obstruct the operations. Methodical searches and mopping-up actions, therefore, will not be carried out by the troops.

II In the Communications Zone

"Commissars who are arrested in the communications zone on account of a doubtful'attitude will be handed over to the Einsatzgruppen and/or Einsatzkommandos of the Security Police (Security Service)"

III. Limitations of Courts-Martial and Summary Courts

"The courts-martial and summary courts of the regimental and other commanders must not be entrusted with the execution of the measures as per I and II."

On 8th June, 1941, von Brauchitsch sent out a supplement of two additional clauses to be added to the original, viz., to I, Number 1,

"Action taken against a political commissar must be based on the fact that the person in question has shown by a special, recognisable act or attitude that he opposes or' will in future oppose the Wehrmacht."

to I, Number 2,

"Political commissars attached to the troops should be segregated and dealt with by order of an officer, inconspicuously and outside the proper battle zone."

On 24th May, 1941, however, von Brauchitsch formulated the Maintenance of Discipline order, in which as a supplement to the Fuehrer Order it is said:

"Subject : Treatment of Enemy Civilians and Criminal Acts of Members of the Wehrmacht against Enemy Civilians.

Attached Fuehrer decree is (hereby) announced. It is to be dis-tributed in writing down to the commanders with jurisdiction of their own ; beyond that, the principles contained in it are to be made known orally.

"Supplements to I :

"I expect that all counter intelligence measures of the troops will be carried out energetically, for their own security and the speedy pacification of the territory won. It will be necessary to take into account the

Page 26

variety of ethnic strains within the population, its overall attitude, and the degree to which they have been stirred up.

"Movement and combat against the enemy' s armed forces are the real tasks of the troops. It demands the fullest concentration and the highest effort of all forces. This task must not be jeopardized in any place. Therefore, in general, special search and mopping-up operations will be out of question for the combat troops.

"The directives of the Fuehrer concern serious cases of rebellion, in which the most severe measures are required.

"Criminal acts of a minor nature are, always in accordance with the combat situation, to be punished according to detailed orders from an officer (if possible, a post commander) by resorting to provisional . meusures (for instance), temporary detention at reduced rations, roping-up on a tree, assignment to labour).

"The C.-in-C's of the Army Groups are requested to obtain my approval prior to the re-instatement of Wehrmacht jurisdiction in the pacified territories. The C.-in-C's of the Armies are expected to make suggestions in this respect in time.

"Special instructions will be issued about the treatment to be given to political dignitaries.

"Supplements to II :

"Under all circumstances it will remain the duty of all superiors to prevent arbitrary excesses of individual members of the Army and to prevent in time the troops becoming unmanageable. It must not come to it that the individual soldier commits or omits any act he thinks proper toward the indigenous population ; he must rather feel that ip every case he is bound by the orders of his oficers. I consider it very important that this be clearly understood down to the. lowest unit. Timely action by every officer, especially every company commander, etc., must help to maintain discipline, the basis of our successes.

"Occurrences with regard to ' I ' and ' II,' and which are of special importance, are to be reported by the troops to the OKH as special events.

(Signed) VON BRAUCHITSCH"


the Kommunisten Order,
the Commando Order and


Night and Fog Decree.
This decree replaced the unsuccessful Nazi policy of taking hostages to undermine underground activities. Suspected underground agents and others would now vanish without a trace into the night and fog.

SS Reichsführer Himmler issued the following instructions to the Gestapo.

"After lengthy consideration, it is the will of the Führer that the measures taken against those who are guilty of offenses against the Reich or against the occupation forces in occupied areas should be altered. The Führer is of the opinion that in such cases penal servitude or even a hard labor sentence for life will be regarded as a sign of weakness. An effective and lasting deterrent can be achieved only by the death penalty or by taking measures which will leave the family and the population uncertain as to the fate of the offender. Deportation to Germany serves this purpose."

Field Marshall Keitel issued a letter stating…

"Efficient and enduring intimidation can only be achieved either by capital punishment or by measures by which the relatives of the criminals do not know the fate of the criminal…The prisoners are, in future, to be transported to Germany secretly, and further treatment of the offenders will take place here; these measures will have a deterrent effect because - A. The prisoners will vanish without a trace. B. No information may be given as to their whereabouts or their fate."




On 3 March 1941, Jodl, Chief of the Wehrmacht Operations Staff, informed his high officers that: "This campaign is more than a struggle at arms, it will lead to a conflict of ideologies". The Eastern campaign was therefore a struggle of extermination; it was necessary to distance oneself from the standpoint of soldierly comradeship
 
The Commando Order


The

No. 003830/42g.Kdos.OWK/Wst F.H. Qu 18.10.1942

1. For a long time now our opponents have been employing in their conduct of the war, methods which contravene the International Convention of Geneva. The members of the so-called Commandos behave in a particularly brutal and underhand manner; and it has been established that those units recruit criminals not only from their own country but even former convicts set free in enemy territories. From captured orders it emerges that they are instructed not only to tie up prisoners, but also to kill out-of-hand unarmed captives who they think might prove an encumbrance to them, or hinder them in successfully carrying out their aims. Orders have indeed been found in which the killing of prisoners has positively been demanded of them.

2. In this connection it has already been notified in an Appendix to Army Orders of 7.10.1942. that in future, Germany will adopt the same methods against these Sabotage units of the British and their Allies; i.e. that, whenever they appear, they shall be ruthlessly destroyed by the German troops.

3. I order, therefore:-

From now on all men operating against German troops in so-called Commando raids in Europe or in Africa, are to be annihilated to the last man. This is to be carried out whether they be soldiers in uniform, or saboteurs, with or without arms; and whether fighting or seeking to escape; and it is equally immaterial whether they come into action from Ships and Aircraft, or whether they land by parachute. Even if these individuals on discovery make obvious their intention of giving themselves up as prisoners, no pardon is on any account to be given. On this matter a report is to be made on each case to Headquarters for the information of Higher Command.

4. Should individual members of these Commandos, such as agents, saboteurs etc., fall into the hands of the Armed Forces through any means - as, for example, through the Police in one of the Occupied Territories - they are to be instantly handed over to the S.D.

To hold them in military custody - for example in P.O.W. Camps, etc., - even if only as a temporary measure, is strictly forbidden.

5. This order does not apply to the treatment of those enemy soldiers who are taken prisoner or give themselves up in open battle, in the course of normal operations, large scale attacks; or in major assault landings or airborne operations. Neither does it apply to those who fall into our hands after a sea fight, nor to those enemy soldiers who, after air battle, seek to save their lives by parachute.

6. I will hold all Commanders and Officers responsible under Military Law for any omission to carry out this order, whether by failure in their duty to instruct their units accordingly, or if they themselves act contrary to it.

(Sgd) A Hitler

 
I never said Ehrenburg gave orders. He wrote propaganda that was given to soldiers of the Red Army and that was publicized by the Party, who either willingly accepted what he wrote or, which is rather the case, supported his agenda.
Then quote them here.
I have already said I will not get further into this crime-by-crime, order-by-order game.
 
I never said Ehrenburg gave orders. He wrote propaganda that was given to soldiers of the Red Army and that was publicized by the Party, who either willingly accepted what he wrote or, which is rather the case, supported his agenda.

My case is simple. Only one side gave signed ORDERS that officialy sanctioned killings.

I have already said I will not get further into this crime-by-crime, order-by-order game.

I think that would be a wise move-simply because of the lack of any Allied ORDERS sanctioning killings
 
Hey guys, just a reminder. I noted that someone mentioned posting pics of war atrocities. I caution you not to post pics that are extremely graphic. They will be deleted. Too many younger folks visiting the forum.
 
My case is simple. Only one side gave signed ORDERS that officialy sanctioned killings.



I think that would be a wise move-simply because of the lack of any Allied ORDERS sanctioning killings

A crime is a crime whether ordered directly or supported indirectly.
 
Okay I want to apologize for starting or getting into this kind of finger pointing. That wasn't my intention and I will stop it right here. Seesul, I apparently mistook one sentence in your post.

I have seen horrible pictures of this war a lot, very ****ed up **** far beyond dismembered bodies. It led me into really despising that particular nation's soldiers. But now I'm a little older and I know that it happened the other way around aswell. And I don't believe in collective guilt and subsequent collective punishment, nor should "your nation started the war" or ANYTHING be an apology for committing war crimes.

ok
 
A crime is a crime whether ordered directly or supported indirectly.

I am sorry you won't let this go so can you explain to me why Germany ALONE had an official policy to kill civilians in occupied territory?
Why were German soldiers exempt from Military Law when dealing with civilians in The East?
Whilst you can find INDIVIDUAL Allied Units/soldiers who commited crimes you will never find an order EXEMPTING them (in advance) from existing penal codes.
 
Marcel - many of the SS troops were EXCELLENT soldiers, all else aside.
Oh, I know they were. But that doesn't change the rest. The difference between waffen SS and totenkopf SS is just that the Waffen SS also fought, while the Totenkopf SS only did war crimes. But the Waffen SS were scum as well. I have lost family members to them, so I could never learn to know them. Most crimes in the Netherlands were done by the Waffen SS. This was something different than crimes committed in the front line. This was calculated crimes against civilians, far away from the battle.
 
Stasoid,

Have you got any clue how many jews, communists slavic people were killed in concentration camps ?? It was the far majority!
no it wasn't . I don't have exact numbers yet since I'm not at home right now but it was definately not a majority.
In fact there were far more than 17 millions of civilians killed. Estimates differ, but the most modern researchs mention even 21 or 22 mill dead.

and the legend of a clean Wehrmacht is refuted by the latest researchs as well. There're thousands if not tens of thousands of accounts which disprove it.
 
namely in Iraq Afghanistan where US soldiers have gone beserk against civilians a number of times already after having been provoked by the taliban.

Lets see some facts that soldiers have gone "berserk" as you said. Lets back those words up Soren, if you are going to make absured claims. I find those claims rather insulting.

Come on buddy, you better back them up.

Have soldiers in Iraq or Afganistan commited crimes? Yes, but they have not gone "berserk" as you say, and to compare them to the type of crimes commited in Iraq is pathetic! A really low and cheap shot.

You better back this one up, or you are on my **** list.
 
I was going to post a story about some atrocity but I can see this is going to disintegrate into finger-pointing. I think we should take Erich's advice and move on or close this.

The question has been answered.

Agreed, I am going to close this thread as soon as Soren backs up his absured comments.
 
Relax guys, I'm not trying to compare the Coalition forces in Afganistan or Iraq to the SS, I was merely trying to explain how seeing your buddies mutilated by the enemy can send one into a rage.

Yes there are examples of US soldiers completely overreacting in Iraq, one incident was caused by an IED going off which made a platoon of US soldiers assault civilian households, throwing in grenades asking questions later. One of the soldiers was recently interviewed by 60 minutes.

I don't see that as a slamming of the Coalition forces as they're doing a great job over there and I can understand why things would go out of control some times. The problem in Iraq Afghanistan is that we're fighting an invisible enemy, which is scary as hell and very hard on the psyche.

Moving on..

Nothing justifies what the SS did, ever, but poeple also need to understand the difference between the different branches. People also need to understand that the majority of the Waffen SS were normal people, the sadists, criminals etc etc were mainly with the shooting squads and different branches. We also need to remember that all sides committed war crimes, and not make monsters out of entire nations because of the actions of some its soldiers.

That's all really.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back