What if - alternatives to Midway operation?

[Conslaw]

I'm re-reading Shattered Sword, and it just seems so obvious to me that the whole operation was a bad idea, poorly executed. Let's assume you are a high-ranking IJN admiral in a planning meeting where the earliest planning of the Midway mission is being discussed. Reservations are raised. You have to come up with a better use of the resources available, what do you pitch, and why? Be prepared to argue your position, because we have a lot of admirals out there ready to dig into it.

 

[SaparotRob]

Immediately press for a negotiated peace.

 

[Conslaw]

Immediately press for a negotiated peace.

The Vulcan attaché would make that logical argument.

 

[buffnut453]

For starters, I'd de-scope the original plan and focus on one main operational area with a clearly defined objective.

 

[SaparotRob]

The Vulcan attaché would make that logical argument.

Fascinating.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Avoid dispersal, concentrate one's forces, and beat the living hell out of MI with BBs while the carriers provide fighter cover, recon, and naval air to sink any riposte from Pearl. Don't aim to seize the island at all, it's a logistical nightmare once you own it. Float some empty transports if you want any ruse at all about landings. Otherwise, aim to neutralize MI.

Leave the Ises in home waters, and use the all the smaller carriers -- where possible -- for CAP/ASW for the BB fleet. KdB acts separately, in support.

Pros: KdB isn't chasing two different rabbits. Rear units actually get to apply force. Midway infrastructure can be obliterated (important for sub war).

Cons: USN less likely to show up for the Decisive Battle. Lots of fuel and ammo spent for a small hope of said battle.

Unknowns: does the IJN have the tankers/escorts for adequate resupply? Where to station the KdB?

I think this is one of the few occasions where the prewar doctrine of carriers scouting and covering a surface fleet may have been the better option.

 

[Conslaw]

For starters, I'd de-scope the original plan and focus on one main operational area with a clearly defined objective.

Keep going, elaborate please.

 

[Conslaw]

Avoid dispersal, concentrate one's forces, and beat the living hell out of MI with BBs while the carriers provide fighter cover, recon, and naval air to sink any riposte from Pearl. Don't aim to seize the island at all, it's a logistical nightmare once you own it. Float some empty transports if you want any ruse at all about landings. Otherwise, aim to neutralize MI.

Leave the Ises in home waters, and use the all the smaller carriers -- where possible -- for CAP/ASW for the BB fleet. KdB acts separately, in support.

Pros: KdB isn't chasing two different rabbits. Rear units actually get to apply force. Midway infrastructure can be obliterated (important for sub war).

Cons: USN less likely to show up for the Decisive Battle. Lots of fuel and ammo spent for a small hope of said battle.

Unknowns: does the IJN have the tankers/escorts for adequate resupply? Where to station the KdB?

I think this is one of the few occasions where the prewar doctrine of carriers scouting and covering a surface fleet may have been the better option.

I like your idea of using the BBs to pound Midway, maybe the key weakness of the Yamamoto's strategy was to fight two enemies - Midway and the carriers. If they get rid of the landing (the landing was a bad idea), they don't have to degrade Midway as much as if they were landing. IF they pound Midway during the night, early morning really, they would only expose the battleships to Midway's airpower for a relatively short time, and they could be covered by the carriers' fighters during that time. Having a few empty transports might be enough of a bluff to bring the US carriers out.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I like your idea of using the BBs to pound Midway, maybe the key weakness of the Yamamoto's strategy was to fight two enemies - Midway and the carriers. If they get rid of the landing (the landing was a bad idea), they don't have to degrade Midway as much as if they were landing. IF they pound Midway during the night, early morning really, they would only expose the battleships to Midway's airpower for a relatively short time, and they could be covered by the carriers' fighters during that time. Having a few empty transports might be enough of a bluff to bring the US carriers out.

That's my thinking. Looking at the October bombardment of the 'Canal by just two BCs, we see Henderson really taken down for a couple of weeks -- and that's not even talking about a sub-base that was used to extend SS patrols as Midway was used. Hammer that with 6-10 BBs/BCs/CAs added, and you can not only knock out the air base, but also probably scupper the submarine support facilities as well.

If you get Kanto Kessen, great. If you don't, you've still subtracted 2200 miles from aerial recon and sub routing in CenPac.

I guess I think that the Japanese should have kept KdB as their ace up the sleeve, rather than leading with wooden decks. I'm a big believer in masking one's hammer-blow.

Yes, I've been hitting the retrospectroscope bong in this post.

 

[Conslaw]

They have a fuel budget. One of the weaknesses of the Midway plan as executed is it pretty much wiped out IJN fuel reserves. Any alternative plan should ideally use less fuel overall, and absolutely no more..

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

They have a fuel budget. One of the weaknesses of the Midway plan as executed is it pretty much wiped out IJN fuel reserves. Any alternative plan should ideally use less fuel overall, and absolutely no more..

Yeah, that's one of my unknowns above. I mean, if they could refuel three separate fleets for the op, presumably they could refuel the entire fleet as a group, but I don't know much about refueling at sea and what such requirements might be, or whether the IJN had mastered such considerations.

Of course no matter what they did -- outside of not sailing for Midway at all -- reserve stocks were going to be deplenished. No matter what, you'd best make that oil count.

 

[buffnut453]

Keep going, elaborate please.

Trying to conduct 2 simultaneous operations against Midway and the Aleutians resulted in divided resources, divided priorities, and a massively over-complex plan. Do Midway or the Aleutians but not both.

 

[SaparotRob]

Trying to conduct 2 simultaneous operations against Midway and the Aleutians resulted in divided resources, divided priorities, and a massively over-complex plan. Do Midway or the Aleutians but not both.

Yo' buffnut453; Military Aviation History just put out"In Defense of the Worst Plane of WW 2, The Brewster Buffalo". I haven't seen it yet. Tell The Thumpster.

 

[buffnut453]

Yo' buffnut453; Military Aviation History just put out"In Defense of the Worst Plane of WW 2, The Brewster Buffalo". I haven't seen it yet. Tell The Thumpster.

Hmmm....I'll have to locate that while I'm in the States next week. I'd be interested to see what they say. Thanks for the pointer.

 

[GrauGeist]

Midway Atoll was expanded after the battle, adding an airfield on Sand Island and accommodations for Submarines in 1943.

 

[SaparotRob]

I think most of us have thought "why not go in and just CLOBBER the place?" I've read that on other threads. I've posted that. Pretty sure Peter Gunn and XBe02drvr posted that. Even Jon Parshall said it recently on the "Drach" show. Must be cultural. If our strategy was followed, where would all the clever fleet deployments be?

 

[GrauGeist]

Considering that Midway was shelled by IJN destroyers on 7 December '41, it wasn't a new idea...

 

[SaparotRob]

There was a computer game called "Carriers at War(?)". In the Pearl Harbor scenario, which starts about 12 hours or so before the attack, I shuttled some planes to Midway and got both those suckers!
I had also sent the battle fleet due north and engaged the Kido Butai at dawn. U.S.S. Arizona landed a broadside on Akagi. Sweet.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'm re-reading Shattered Sword, and it just seems so obvious to me that the whole operation was a bad idea, poorly executed. Let's assume you are a high-ranking IJN admiral in a planning meeting where the earliest planning of the Midway mission is being discussed. Reservations are raised. You have to come up with a better use of the resources available, what do you pitch, and why? Be prepared to argue your position, because we have a lot of admirals out there ready to dig into it.

Wait for Zuikaku and thrown the lot at Midway. Codebreaking can only help the US so far when faced with a single force of seven carriers fielding close to four-hundred aircraft (incl. Zuikaku's renewed CAG), seven battleships, ten heavy cruisers, three light cruisers, fourteen destroyers, thirteen submarines, and thirty-five support/invasion ships.

Yes, we all know the Japanese and IJN in particular liked overly complicated plans, but did any of these IJN higher ups study the Principles of War and the concentration of force?

Carl von Clausewitz:
- Discover how we may gain a preponderance of physical forces and material advantages at the decisive point.
- Use our entire force with the utmost energy, with forces concentrated at the main point
Sun Tzu:
- The highest Generalship is...to concentrate superior force

Breaking up your otherwise numerically superior naval force into smaller pieces is just dumb. If the goal is to take Midway and thus force the USN in a decisive battle, then use everything at your disposal to take the island. Yes, there's a chance the USN will see the size of the force and not take the bait, losing the chance at the "decisive battle" but that's better than the alternative of using your damn fleet carriers as bait!!!!

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Carl von Clausewitz:
- Discover how we may gain a preponderance of physical forces and material advantages at the decisive point.
- Use our entire force with the utmost energy, with forces concentrated at the main point
Sun Tzu:
- The highest Generalship is...to concentrate superior force

Nathan Bedford Forrest:

"Get there fustest with the mostest."

Yo' buffnut453; Military Aviation History just put out"In Defense of the Worst Plane of WW 2, The Brewster Buffalo". I haven't seen it yet. Tell The Thumpster.

By the way, I found and watched the video, it's really good, as MAH usually is. Thanks for the lead!