What of the Me 410?

[YakFlyer]

One could best sum up the abilities in the Zestorer, in two allied aircraft, the P-51, and the Mosquito. The story of the Zestorer must be considered a failure, certainly in day-time ops. It is all very well saying that they were not designed to tangle with single engine fighters, but what if one appears in combat, you have no choice. They had no ability dogfighting. The Mosquito and the '51 did the two jobs so sucessfully, that the Zestorers failed with doing at once.

 

[Jank]

 

[Civettone]

It is all very well saying that they were not designed to tangle with single engine fighters

I don't know if that's true. How can any fighter be designed not to tangle with single-engined fighters. Most countries only had single-engined aircraft as fighters...

The way I see it is that the Bf 110 was deprived of its qualities when it was ordered to stick closely to the bombers it had to protect. When properly used - that is in what Americans call a BnZ attack - the Bf 110 was more than a match for the Spitfire and definitely better than the Hurricane.

Also later against the Russians the Bf 110 did what it was supposed to until replacement by the Me 210 was due.
Kris

 

[Udet]

Excellent comment Civ.

That sounded as if there were areas of German airspace where access to single-engined fighters was banned. "Twin-engined fighters only".

German planners certainly made fateful decisions regarding military production but of course they knew what kind of planes would the Me 410 encounter when airborne in the year 1944.

I do not know if you read this thread from its beginning Civ but my point is the actual performance of the Me 410 remains a mistery, and might eventually remain as such.

I have commented German planners made a terrible mistake in maintaining the Zerstörergruppen in service from the second half of 1943 and through the whole 1944. Why a mistake? Not because the Hornisse was a piece of crap against anything that was not a bomber like most accounts suggest, rather my viewpoint has different grounds; it was a huge mistake due to the resources a ZG demanded to remain operational.

ZG 26 and ZG 76 did not justify their existance during the 18 months comprising the period of time between summer 1943 and the end of 1944.

When one gets to know further about the fuel crisis of the Luftwaffe during the last 12 months of the war it can only be wondered what the hell were the guys in the OKL thinking...that scarce and precious fuel in the tanks of the Me 410s during 1944could have been used -at minimum- to dramatically increase the number of sorties flown by the jagdgeschwdern in Reichsverteidigung.

Civ...lose one Me 410 in combat, say, the 2 guys are KIAs; on the other hand lose one Bf 109 or Fw 190, the pilot (one guy) also a KIA.

2 vs 1: a 100% casualty rate in the case of the Me 410. Another reason to affirm with confidence it was a gruesome mistake to keep the Hornisse in service during such period.

The fuel again...what a single Me 410 swallowed during one sole mission could have put how many Bf 109s or Fw 190s in the air?

If ZG 26 and ZG 76 remained operational during 1944 with the human and material resources both units swallowed, two jagdgeschwadern of four gruppe each could have been made operational to greet the 8th AF.

The argument the Me 410 endured high losses is almost meaningless if presented to prove the plane was a fat turkey if confronted with allied fighters. The whole Luftwaffe took high losses but we know the Bf 109 G-6 or the Fw 190 A-8 as fighters, had no problem in dealing with anything the enemy threw at them.

The OKL knew what was in store for 1944. They were totally aware a huge aerial battle was in the horizon; even more intense than it was during 1943.

Disband the ZGs, reduce the production of twin engined fighters to only maintain an adequate night fighter force to take care of the RAF bombers.
Cancell the production of bombers. Convert all bomber crewmen to fighter pilots. All these steps should have been taken when 1943 was ending.

It is not daring to affirm no less than 5 jagdgruppen -four gruppe each- could have spawned from such measures. In addition to the JGs we know today, we would be speaking about JG 666, JG 777, JG 1000, JG 2000 and JG 3000....and of more horrific losses the USAAF would have had to take, and possibly of a significant protraction of the conflict.

Cheers!

 

[Udet]

Charlie...I agree with you.

I have to admit i was surprised to read such comments on the Me 410 if you take into account it´s the russians speaking.

It is one of the very rare times when i´ve come across an allied account that confirms German aircraft retained high quality workmanship until the very end of the war, even if the Me 410 ended production in late 1944.

I have met a German pilot and i asked if he had to endure the consequences of "poor workmanship" in his Bf 109 when flying combat missions during 1945, a flat no was his response.

Charles have you come across any videos of Me 410 in test flights firing their nose ordnance? I have not...but i´d love to.

I have films Bf 109 -possibly made for propaganda purposes- where the 109 is firing the nose cannon and both MG 131 and the fire burst is quite impressive. So i would like to see a Me 410 firing its nose kit of six 2cm cannons, a hurricane of fire sounds like modest...

 

[Civettone]

Udet, I've read it from page 6 (as you suggested).
I still have some sympathy for the RLM keeping the Zerstörer in production because the situation in 1943 was still promising for aircraft with long-range interceptors with a heavy armament who do not have to fear escort fighters. And the fuel issue wasn't going to be decided on the use of those few Me 410s. I'm also not concerned about the rear gunner getting killed. The real reason why I'm against the Me 410 was that you could build 4 Bf 109s in the same time frame. That's really the key issue in my book.

I disagree with stopping bomber production. Germany still needed an offensive air weapon, at least against the Russians. Also, converted bomber pilots were rarely good fighter pilots (though good Sturm pilots). And what are you going to do with the rest of the bomber crews? And what if you restore air superiority over Germany? Build the bomber force up again? I think that will prove to be impossible, and then the fate of Germany is sealed in any case because the enemy could stop building interceptors and stick to bombers and escort fighters. And then you can start all over again...

Kris

 

[Udet]

Those few Me 410s? What about the Bf 110s of II./ZG 1 taking part in daylight missions during the summer of 1944? And what about the twin engined planes serving in the zerstörergruppen during the whole 1944?

In January 1944, the whole zerstörerverbande had ~290 planes (Bf 110s, Ju 88s and Me 210s).

Are you sure on the "few Me 410s" part? stab., I., and II./ZG 26 maintained
~80 zerstörer in strenght during the summer months of 1944.

80 planes might seem a tricky number...even if half the number of planes were serviceable that would mean 200,000 liters of fuel to put them in the air.

How many Bf 109 G-6s would you put in the air with 200,000 liters of fuel? Answer= 500.

500 Bf 109 G-6= 500 pilots
40 Me 410 A = 80 men (pilot-rear gunner).

So during the summer of 1944, a critical moment in the aerial battle over the Reich, 80 men were consuming the fuel that could have put 500 single engined fighter pilots in the air to deal with Mustangs and heavy bombers.

Does this sound like efficiency to you?

Me 410 A-1 =5000 liters (internal fuel)
Bf 110 =1270 liters (internal fuel)
Bf 109 G-6 =400 liters (internal fuel)

A single Me 410 A-1 with fuel tanks loaded swallowed the fuel of a flight of 12.5 Bf 109s.

As late as in december 1944, IV./ZG 26 and II./ZG 76 continue to have ~90 zerstörer in strenght.

Along with the fuel consumption issue, i too did mention the fact of the engines and fuselages that could instead have been utilized to produce more Bf 109s and other fighters.

Nowhere did i suggest the "fuel issue was decided on the use of those few Me 410s". I was referring to the whole twin engined fighters deployed for daylight combat missions.

From the numbers i am presenting here it is more than clear the zerstörergruppen swallowed fuel that could have helped either increasing the number of sorties of the available jagdgeschwadern or in creatind new single engined fighter units; not to decide the issue but certainly to have an impact.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Nice data and numbers Udet.

Charles have you come across any videos of Me 410 in test flights firing their nose ordnance? I have not...but i´d love to.

I got some of the Me-410 flying, not firing, I keep on the search for it.

 

[Civettone]

Udet;

- there's no shortage of rear gunners, especially not when taking the Ju 87 and other bombers out of production. Let's stick to pilots, ok?

- Fuel production dropped below the fuel consumption in June 1944. So up to that time there were no Bf 109s being grounded because of the Me 410. Up til that time the Luftwaffe got something like 200,000 ton a month. I think that puts your 200 ton into perspective.

- you mention 5000 l internal fuel but you know just as well as I do that you don't need to fill them up all the way. The Me 410 could fly at least three times as far as a Bf 109. So bring back that 200,000 liters to 75,000...

Kris

 

[Morai_Milo]

Are you sure on the "few Me 410s" part? stab., I., and II./ZG 26 maintained ~80 zerstörer in strenght during the summer months of 1944.

Zerstörergeschwader 26

StabZG26/I./ZG26/II./ZG26 (month end)
May - 5/20/50 > 75
June - 2/33/39 > 74
July - 3/15/19 > 37
Aug - 3/74/0 - 77
Sept - 4/48/nil - 52

Only in Aug did the units come near to 80 a/c, total.

As late as in december 1944, IV./ZG 26 and II./ZG 76 continue to have ~90 zerstörer in strenght.

IV./ZG26 went from 1 410 at month beginning to 12 at month end and II./ZG76 went from 57 at month beginning to 37 410s at month end for Dec 1944.

Zerstörergeschwader 76

 

[Erich]

you have posted what was suppose to be in the gruppen but what they had serviceable would be an interesting counter, ZG 26 was getting wipped by US escorts from the skies in 44 until they became cadre for other single engine units.
I am not in total agreement with M.H.'s website on several other units portions but it is understandable with errors, everything is that way

 

[Udet]

Udet;

- there's no shortage of rear gunners, especially not when taking the Ju 87 and other bombers out of production. Let's stick to pilots, ok?

- Fuel production dropped below the fuel consumption in June 1944. So up to that time there were no Bf 109s being grounded because of the Me 410. Up til that time the Luftwaffe got something like 200,000 ton a month. I think that puts your 200 ton into perspective.

- you mention 5000 l internal fuel but you know just as well as I do that you don't need to fill them up all the way. The Me 410 could fly at least three times as far as a Bf 109. So bring back that 200,000 liters to 75,000...

Kris

Civ:

I will rephrase my idea.

The core of this notion is the widely known fact Germany was not a rich nation in terms of natural resources and men.

Germany faced critical shortages of so many materials and items, like fuel, during the last year of the war having maintained the Zerstörergeschwadern in service to carry on with daylight missions in during the last part of 1943 and virtually through the entire 1944 -Reichsverteidigung-was a horrifying mistake.

Germany was facing the air forces of three main enemies: USAAF, RAF and VVS, although in my view the most fundamental air force was the USAAF hands down-, something that for practical purposes is about impossible.

It is in view of such a clear situation of disadvantage Germany could not afford to continue allocating material resources (raw materials for engines and spare parts, weapons, ammo, fuel, etc.) and workforce for producing more twin-engined fighters and BOMBERS (!) during 1944.

I am sure you know these facts Civ so i have to say i disagree to read you consider the zerstörern should remain in service even for the last part of 1943 when escorts did not yet attain the necessary range to protect the bombers during the whole bombing run. But what makes me feel nearly shocked is to read you think Germany should have continued producing bombers during 1944...

German planners knew perfectly well what was coming regarding aerial combat over the Reich. They had the necessary time to have the strategy revamped but instead decided to put it all in the dustbin and simply continued producing aircraft that were no longer necessary for the Luftwaffe. Terrible mistake and they paid accordingly.

1944 would have been, as it occured, a brutal year in European skies, and Germany could have had far more single engined fighters with the required pilots to batter the USAAF.

Had Germany disbanded all the ZG and most of the KG by the end of 1943, converting all pilots and the bulk of the crews to single engined fighter pilots and there is this chance the USAAF would not even dare to mention the overhyped Mustang preferring to keep it in a low profile.

In terms of raw materials a Me 210 or 410 could spawn a couple of Bf 109s.

It is difficult for me to understand anyone might fail to see how terrible that can be for a small nation with limited access to resources that is waging a war against a large common enemy.

I know a Me 410 and Bf 110 had a pilot and rear gunner Civ; so what´s your point? All those who performed as radio operator/rear gunners during 1944 could not be trained to become single engined fighter pilots?

Every guy who died as rear gunner during 1944 on a Me 410 or Bf 110 represented a pointless loss.

Also your comment bomber crews do not make good pilots is odd; how come? I agree not everyone has the talent to become a fighter pilot -or to perform any profession you can think of-, but how is it being a bomber crewman makes you unfit for becoming a Bf 109 or Fw 190 pilot? I know of a large number of cases of bomber crewmen who not only flew in He 111s as gunners, bombers or radio operators they also became aces flying in BF 109s or Fw 190s.

Your second point on the last posting: I neither said nor suggested single-engined fighters were staying on the ground because the Me 410s were stealing their fuel Civ -although it is not daring to affirm such a thing indeed could have happened after the summer of 1944-.

My point was just to illustrate how inclined to waste the German style of waging the aerial war was during late 1943 and through the whole 1944. Wasteful. Wasteful to death.

A complete mess and lack of efficiency in terms of resources management. Instead of the rough 80 Me 410s serving in any ZG during mid 1944 the Luftwaffe could have had 160 Bf 109 G-6/AS or G-10s Civ.

160 Bf 109s? We are nearly talking about a complete geschwader. How come you can not see this?

Well, i know my father does not need to fill the whole tank of his car to keep it going. But do you have any copies of formats that might show how many liters were being dispensed into a Me 410 before mission?

Ok Civ. 75,000 liters of fuel will help you putting 187 Bf 109s to go up and gut P-51s, P-47s and P-38s.

187 Bf 109s -or Fw 190s- can represent a Jagdgeschwader with the stab., three gruppen and the Ergänzungsgruppe.

187 Bf 109s or Fw 190s that never came to life because raw materials, assembly facilities and workforce were instead being allocated to produce Me 410s, Bf 110s and bombers... bloody messy planning from the German part.

Do you agree it was wasteful Civ?

 

[Morai_Milo]

What is the use of all these extra 109s/190s when there is not enough trained and qualified pilots to fly them?

The JGs already did not have enough fuel so the fuel saved from the disbadoning of the ZGs would only give extra fuel to the already existing JGs. The extra 109s/190s would be still short of fuel.

 

[CRASHGATE3]

Guys...an excellent thread on the Me410....thanks.
You may be interested in this pic I took a few days ago at the Royal Air Force museum at Cosford
Sorry no history but the sign said Me410A-1/U2 and the markings were 3U (in black) + C (in red on white band) C(in black)

 

[Udet]

What is the use of all these extra 109s/190s when there is not enough trained and qualified pilots to fly them?

The JGs already did not have enough fuel so the fuel saved from the disbadoning of the ZGs would only give extra fuel to the already existing JGs. The extra 109s/190s would be still short of fuel.

The disbandment of all ZGs is one factor, and the other is the disbanding of several KG.

Focusing on the critical year of 1944: Germany produced ~2,050 bombers (He 111, Ju 88, Ju 188 and He 177 plus a handful of other types), plus ~800 Me 210s/Me 410s and even ~110 Bf 110s. Tell me of anything significant these planes achieved during 1944.

~2,960 ships, all of them machines with 2 engines. With a serviceability rate of 50% for all those planes produced during 1944 you seriously believe only "some extra fuel" could have been given to the "existing JGs"?

More than that in fact for it would have helped having fuel for JGs that did not even come to life. Think of the math...if the fuel of one single Me 410 A-1 or B-1 could put a staffel of single-engined fighters up in the air, then you can try to figure out the issue with all those thousands of twin engined planes the Luftwaffe was no longer requiring during 1944 but that were produced and saw service.

All those men, planes and fuel stupidly lost during the Baby Blitz of the first months 1944 over England...you are not going to deny it was a stupid commitment of men and war materiel and fuel are you? Want to check the number of sorties flown by the ~490 bombers that took part in that senseless "campaign" to come up with a figure of fuel consumed?

The "extra" Bf 109s and Fw190s i am referring to could indeed have been more than 2,000 machines for the second half of 1944 with sufficient pilots to fly them in combat. So add 2,000 planes to the known order of battle of West/Reich Luftwaffe between jul-december 1944.

Hypothetical scenario: the sturmkinder flying Fw 190 A-8/R8s of IV (sturm)./JG 3 or II. (sturm)/JG 4 are provided with top cover flight of 300 Bf 109 G-6/AS on every mission flown...give the USAAF 7 or 8 episodes of dimensions identical to that of the Kassel raid of the poor devils of the 445th BG in one month and believe me, the guys in the USAAF will not be sure whether to continue the aerial war.

Such 2,000 single-engined ships will consume much much less fuel than half the total of bombers produced by Germany during 1944.

I have table lists with production and deliveries of bombers and twin-engined fighters to KG and ZG for every month of 1944 and it is clearly seen it was a 100% wasteful kind of war management from the german part.

Training of German pilots was sufficient to produce the type of pilots necessary to fly the planes for the second half of 1944; certainly training programs and schedules were shortened but that a pilot was "green" does not mean he was "ill-trained" as it has been conviniently presented by the allies.

Chances are you are not yet convinced producing Me 210s/410s and Bf 110s during 1944 was a foolish thing; you can be sure whatever your approach might be, it will be proven it would have been wiser to instead produce only single-engined fighters.

(i) Raw materials.
(ii) Workforce.
(iii) Number of engines.
(iv) Crew.
(v) Ground crews/maintenance (technicians, mechanics, armorers, etc.)
(vi) Fuel.

In conclusion: 2 engined planes are more expensive (raw materials and workforce) and tale more time to be produced.

A large nation, with a large territory -distant from where the fight is-, and with open access to the natural resources and raw materials of vast regions like the USA could afford planning and organizational mistakes...Germany could not but did...

 

[Gimmeacannon!]

Looks like this thread has been going on a loooong loooong time, I think I may be unique among the members discussing the me 410 because I have actually crawled through the only surviving Me410 in anything like a complete condition.
I worked at Cosford as a volunteer in the late 70's early 80's with the Society there and for something like eighteen months cleaned tidied and examined the aircraft as much as possible, since then she has been to St Athan where her engines were actually run by the technicians there and ahd some work done before coming back to Cosford.
As I see it having sat in the rear fuselage directly forward of the turret mechanism for the rear firing weapons the aircraft could have well done without it and its extra weight, all you see on the outside is a couple of blisters and two gun barrels but inside is a bloody great piece of electrically driven machinery weighing about a ton.
It is very complicated and heavy and why they persisted with it I dont know because unless the target was directly behind and some distance away only one gun could be fired, a pair of 13mm machine guns in the rear cockpit would have been more efficient and would double the firepower plus save a massive amount of weight behind the main wing which could only improve handling and stability.

 

[Gimmeacannon!]

The Me410 at Cosford is a A1/U2 and was captured at Vaerlose in Denmark and was then flown to Schleswig then on to Farnbourough on 13th October 1945.
On 28th December 1945 it was flown to Brize Norton and in August 1946 was allocated to 76 MU Wroughton for museum storage, for some years she was in storage at the German Air Force Equipment Centre at No 4 MU Stanmore Park.By 1960 she had been moved to RAF Fulbeck then in 1961 was moved to RAF Cosford for storage.
She is fitted with DB603A-2 engines and her Werk Nummer is 420430.

 

[CRASHGATE3]

Thanx for filling in the details on the Me410 at Cosford.
I didnt have much time to read all the info...too busy taking pix !!
I would have loved to get in the cockpit though !

 

[syscom3]

......
Hypothetical scenario: the sturmkinder flying Fw 190 A-8/R8s of IV (sturm)./JG 3 or II. (sturm)/JG 4 are provided with top cover flight of 300 Bf 109 G-6/AS on every mission flown...give the USAAF 7 or 8 episodes of dimensions identical to that of the Kassel raid of the poor devils of the 445th BG in one month and believe me, the guys in the USAAF will not be sure whether to continue the aerial war.........

Thats assuming that the escorting fighters were not in a position to intercept those fighters, or were outnumbered to the extent they couldn't stop them. That was a rare and infrequent event.

As Erich mentioned in multiple threads, the twin engined "bomber killers" that flew in daylight were meat on the plate for the allied fighters. Even for the P38's.

 

[Udet]

Thats assuming that the escorting fighters were not in a position to intercept those fighters, or were outnumbered to the extent they couldn't stop them. That was a rare and infrequent event.

As Erich mentioned in multiple threads, the twin engined "bomber killers" that flew in daylight were meat on the plate for the allied fighters. Even for the P38's.

Incorrect. I am assuming any kind of escorts available in the USAAF are in the area.

Instead of 40, 50, 60 or 70 Bf 109s flying top cover for the sturmgruppen no less than 300 escorts could have been available on every mission flown if German planners had bothered to attempt putting their stuff together.

I repeat no less than 300 and even 400 Bf 109 G-6/AS against whatever number of the overhyped Mustangs you might want to come up with. Say 350 German escorts against what...500 P-51s?

7 or 8 "Kassels" per month; do not forget the guys of the 445th BG did belong in a side that is not good at swallowing high losses.