Nightwitch
Airman
- 67
- Feb 12, 2009
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So, how many were sold for export or delivered as a superior choice to the Mossie, the B-25.
Would it have been better than even the P-61 or F7F or the P-38J had other a/c not been better in the individual roles?
Would the LW have picked it over the JU-88/188 if it had a choice? Or Do 217?
To me the Peshka was a medium performing twin that was pressed into a lot of roles - not because there weren't superior choices but because it was available and flexible.. and it did a good job.
The wing loading is almost identical on both aircraft, do you have flight data to prove that?The Peshka was more maneuverable than the than a Mossie.
The wing loading is almost identical on both aircraft, do you have flight data to prove that?
DH.98 Mosquito F. Mk II
Performance
Maximum speed: 318 knots (366 mph, 610 km/h) at 21,400 ft (8,500 m)
Range: 782 nm (900 mi, 1,500 km) 410 gallon fuel load at 20,000 ft
Service ceiling: 29,000 ft (8,839 m)
Rate of climb: 1,740 ft/min (8.8 m/s)
Wing loading: 39.9 lb/ft² (195 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.189 hp/lb (311 W/kg)
Petlyakov Pe-2
Performance
Maximum speed: 580 km/h (360 mph)
Range: 1,160 km (721 miles)
Service ceiling: 8,800 m (28,870 ft)
Rate of climb: 7.2 m/s (1,410 ft/min)
Wing loading: 186 kg/m² (38 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 250 W/kg (0.15 hp/lb)
The Russians didn't sell any planes for export during the war, they needed them. But neither did they buy Mossies and B-25s to replace their Peshkas. They used A-20 Bostons early in the war, because they were cheaply available lend-lease planes, not because the Peshka was in any way inadequate.
I didn't say it was inadequate - just mediocre in contrast to the others in Multi Role. BTW the A-20 was significantly more expensive than the Pe 2 so cost wasn't the factor in using A-20s...and the A-20G went to USSR in significant numbers in 1943 and 1944. nor were many B-25s available but the Soviet Union did receive B-25C's.
My only point is that nobody on the Allied side said 'wow - we need THAT airplane so that we can do Mission A, B and C better than what we have. Can we license it?"
Medium performing? The Peshka was faster and more maneuverable than the Ju-88 and more maneuverable than a Mossie.
That might be one or two variables and mission profiles of importance. So the bombload, range and ceiling superiority of the Ju 88/188, the extreme performance superiority of the Mk XVI Mossie (speed, ceiling, firepower, range and speed with load, etc) over the Pe 2 (any and all variations) make them less mission capable and multi role flexible than the Pe 2?
The variants used as heavy fighters and night fighters had quite a strong armament in their own right, though they might not have been as heavy as the guns on the Mossie or the Ju-88 night fighters.
And what radar system did the Pe 2 finally adopt to replace searchlights?
If the Luftwaffe had the choice, yeah I think they would have picked the Peshka over the Ju-88. The only advantage the Ju-88 had was in bomb load. The performance of the Peshka was much better, even at high altitude. Here's a chart listing the speed by altitude of various bombers tested by the Soviet Union:
Are you suggesting that 6Km is 'High Altitude"?? Where did Pe 2 stack up at 9-10km??
The fastest plane there, the thin blue line, is the Pe-2I, a Pe-2 using the new VK-107A engines. They were built in limited series production. The Mosquito MkIV is slower , it's the red line, though it's faster than most series production Peshkas with the older M-105 and VK-105 engines. But even those Peshkas are faster at all altitudes than the Ju-88A-6 that was tested alongside them.
See comments below.
So, how can you justify calling it a "medium-performing" plane while in the same breath extolling the virtues of the slower, less-maneuverable, less-advanced Ju-88?
THunderbolt all the way. Great air superiority aircraft and an awesome ground attack bird.
I notice you are comparing the top performing Pe 2 against a select version of Ju 88 of 1941 vintage and Mossie Mk IV of same timeframe - how about laying the Ju 88G-1 and Mk XVI in your performance chart??
As to 'justifying the Ju 88" -
Well, just because the slower, less manueverable JU 88 had about 10+ variants that all performed their different missions very well... and most of them they performed far better than the Pe 2.
The Pe 2 was faster - Ok. The A-20 was also faster than the Ju 88's of 1941 and 1942. How well would the Pe 2 perform the high altitude recon mission? Long range escort for Fw 200 in anti shipping role. Long Range Anti shipping role. Night fighter against RAF. Medium bomber/long range?
The Pe 2 was faster than the Ju 88 and Ju 188 (slightly)... that's about it. Manueverability superiority would have been useful if it had to dogfight against say an A-20 or even a Mossie. How does that work against a 109 or a Spit or a 190?
When you add range, bombload with range, mission variation with airframe, the Ju 88 IMO was a Far Superior airframe - but I like the Mossie better.
Further, I can't think of a role that the P-38L would not perform better than the Pe 2 other than perhaps dropping a spy behind enemy lines... at night.
I'm going to stick my neck out and shout for the US ship over the Brit ship; if I was unlucky enough to get hosed, I'd rather be in a P-38 than a flying coffee table. For me, that would be the edge, both planes got hosed (and shot down) but enemy fire would scythe through the Mosquito; for me it'sI think it comes down to two different aircraft...
...The Mossie and the Ju 88. No other aircraft was more versatile than those two aircraft...
...The P-38 is a very very close 3rd.
Hello Nightwitch
now the selection of versions into the table you posted has been goal-directed as the selection of Ju 88A-6 showed.
I have not time to dig out proper sources but according to Weal's Weal's Combat A/c of WWII max speed of the most important Ju 88A version, A-4, was 450km/h at 6000m, in fact most of A-4s had a bit more powerful engines than the early version, which data W W gives, their max speed was 472 km/h. Ju 88S-1 with GM-1 boost and only internal load (14*65kg bombs) attained 610km/h at 8200m, Mossie B. Mk XVI had max speed of 656km/h at 7925m.
And while Pe-2 was a great multirole plane it wasn't very manoeuvrable because of high wing and powerloading, Finns used some and I have seen the test reports made by Finns.
Juha
Agreed, and the presentation is well put forth.Well, it may have been goal-directed by the Soviet author, but all sources have bias, that's the first thing you learn as a historian. The source I quoted is no different. However, it's one of the few sources available that shows actual test data and velocity curves for the various Peshka variants. Since they weren't tested by the other allies or anything like that, it's hard to go with anything other than Soviet sources to learn about their performance.
Pardon, but I don't believe the SBD ever delivered a torpedo. A torpedo weighed 2000 pounds and I don't believe it could get off a deck with that load. The Corsair was an excellent fighter, perhaps the equal of any, it was an excellent fighter bomber, probably the best, it was a good dive bomber, almost the equal of the Dauntless and more accurate than the Helldiver, it was used as a night fighter with radar and could easily have launched a torpedo, it was also used as a photo recon plane.