What were the long ranger bombers in '39/40

drgondog · Mar 2, 2009

delcyros said:
To strike a target at 1500 km distance is a daunting task, this would require a range in excess of 4000km with 1000 Kg payload. The only serial bomber, deployed in numbers and operational in the 1939/40 timeframe I can think of is the japanese G3M1/2 model 21/22 "Nell" bomber. It falls slightly short in payload (800 Kg instead of 1000 Kg) but significantly exceeds the range requirement (4.380 Km with max. bombload). 610 of them were produced 1939 to 1941.
.

The B-17B and C were fully capable of the mission, were operational (B) with first deliveries in July 1939 through Jan 1940 to equip the only two heavy bomb groups in USAAF. We can quibble with 'deployed' numbers but that is all the US budgeted.

The C was deemed unsuitable for ETO ops but at the end of the day it was at least as 'suitable' as a Do 17/217 or He 111 or G3M1/2 or Halifax or Sterling.

The RAF decided that there were too many problems associated with attacks at 30,000 feet and they did not have a doctrine to successfully prosecute daylight strikes at lower altitudes...(nor did we - as it proved out - until late 1943)

The bomb capacity and range of the B was actually slightly greater than C simply because it was lighter and both had the same ultimate range/payload capacity of the G.

The E/F/G was much heavier (and more capable) than B/C but internal fuel and internal bomb capacity were same (except for modification to install Tokyo tanks at expense of bomb load.)

Vincenzo · Mar 2, 2009

delcyros said:
The Do-217A0 pre serial and B0 pre serial bombers saw service in late 1940 so they do qualify. I stand corrected with the Do-215.
The Fw-200 "could" do the same but was not necessarely a military plane by this time as were the BV Ha139.

I never read of Do 217B, same for A-0 as bomber.
it's my fault i don't wrote that i'm talking of ground planes, for Ha 139 i've some doubt that can load 1 tons of bomb and i don't think that it's a actual bomber more a test plane. For Fw 200 it's ok was already in orbat in summer '40

Freebird · Mar 2, 2009

Waynos said:
In 39-40 there were the early model B-17's, the ones with the small fin and no tail gunner, which I think were the only US long range bomber in service with a few in the RAF but these were quickly pulled from bomber ops due to their poor defensive armament and general performance (these were very different from the B-17's that would later pummel Germany).

There was no 4 engine heavy in RAF sevice at all but the Short Stirling reached the squadrons in 1940, with the first ops in Feb 1941,
.

drgondog said:
B-17 and Halifax for sure. The Soviet Il-4 while only twin engine could achieve the range/payload -

The Il-4 wasn't the only long range bomber in Soviet service, don't forget the Pe-8, first production deliveries were in May '40, 4 engines, 8,800 lb payload, and 2,900 mile range.
With the exception of the B-17, it was probably the best long-range bomber in early '40

delcyros · Mar 2, 2009

drgondog said:
The B-17B and C were fully capable of the mission, were operational (B) with first deliveries in July 1939 through Jan 1940 to equip the only two heavy bomb groups in USAAF. We can quibble with 'deployed' numbers but that is all the US budgeted.

The C was deemed unsuitable for ETO ops but at the end of the day it was at least as 'suitable' as a Do 17/217 or He 111 or G3M1/2 or Halifax or Sterling.

The E/F/G was much heavier (and more capable) than B/C but internal fuel and internal bomb capacity were same (except for modification to install Tokyo tanks at expense of bomb load.)

That´s quite interesting. I understood that the first flight of a B-17B was 27-06-1939. 39 Planes were delivered. Certainly the very first B-17 entered service even earlier.Along with the soviet TB-7/ANT-42, the french F223 and the japanese G3M these bombers were technically capable to do the job.

drgondog · Mar 2, 2009

delcyros said:
That´s quite interesting. I understood that the first flight of a B-17B was 27-06-1939. 39 Planes were delivered. Certainly the very first B-17 entered service even earlier.Along with the soviet TB-7/ANT-42, the french F223 and the japanese G3M these bombers were technically capable to do the job.

The first B-17B was actually delivered to 2nd BG at Langley in July 1939. the first 39 (all built) were delivered to 2nd, 7th and 19th - each receiving a 'complete' squadron. It differed from the YB-17/B-17A primarily with larger eppenage/H.Stabilizer, larger flaps for better low speed control.

The B-17C had significant changes. In addition to upgrading from 1000hp cyclones to supercharged 1200 hp - with max speed of 323mph (empty) at 25K - it removed blister and replaced dorsal/ventral/waist .30's with 50's. Range 2400miles with 4,000 pound bombload. The first one flew in July 1940 and the 1st one was delivered to 2nd BG in Nov 1940.

All these (except for RAF) were returned to factory to be retrofitted to B-17D configurations.

Vincenzo · Mar 2, 2009

at this point we have
B-17B (and early variant)
Type 96 model 21 attack bomber (i've some doubt that can take the radius in overload and also that overload table had 2*500kg bombs, the doubt are largest for model 11)
TB-7 (some doubt that they are ready for combat)
DB-3b
NC-223.4
S.M. 82
Fw 200 C

Freebird · Mar 3, 2009

Vincenzo said:
at this point we have
B-17B (and early variant)

TB-7 (some doubt that they are ready for combat)

The TB-7 was used, though obsolete

And you should add the Pe-8 to your list, longer range. bigger payload than B-17C. This was the aircraft that Molotov flew in to the Summit with the allies after Russia entered the war

Vincenzo · Mar 3, 2009

freebird said:
The TB-7 was used, though obsolete

And you should add the Pe-8 to your list, longer range. bigger payload than B-17C. This was the aircraft that Molotov flew in to the Summit with the allies after Russia entered the war

TB-7 wasn't obsolete because it's old name of Pe-8. afaik until november 1940 the small number of TB-7 flying only test and training fly

Freebird · Mar 3, 2009

Vincenzo said:
TB-7 wasn't obsolete because it's old name of Pe-8. afaik until november 1940 the small number of TB-7 flying only test and training fly

Pardon me, I was thinking of the obsolete TB-3

I don't see the designation TB-7, I have it listed as an ANT-2

Vincenzo · Mar 3, 2009

ANT 42 i think was designer name for prototypes

Vincenzo · Mar 3, 2009

i'm looking info on Whitley V range (or info like fuel load and fuel conusmption for determine the range). i've this the fuel load is 837 gallons (imperial) i suppose a consumption like 100 galls/hour for cruise (near to double in the climb) and a cruise speed on ~210 mp/h with this it can't take the requirements, but i need more info on eventually auxiliary tanks

delcyros · Mar 3, 2009

Vincenzo,

please be consistent with Your specifications. The original specififcations called for a plane (no prototype) to be able to do the job technically. If You now introduce the way planes were used, the B-17 has to be excluded. Practically no bomber flew combat missions with that long range requirements except for the F-223 (once) and the type 96 attack bomber.
Neither the Il-4 nor the TB-7 nor the Halifax nor the B-17 or the Do-217 flew 3000+ km long bombing missions in 1939/40. I doubt that this justifys them to be excluded.

The type 96 attack bomber could accept quite significant warloads. It never carried a 800 Kg torpedo (the japanese navy never fielded a torpedo of this size). It was equipped in 1939 with
the type 91 mod 1 torpedoe (=784 kg weight)
while it carried from 1940 onwards the
type 91 mod 2 torpedoe (=935 kg weight best known for beeing used against Repulse / Prince of Wales in 1941)
normal bombtypes for the mod 21 are
60Kg, 250Kg, 500Kg or 800 Kg (AP/HE) bombs.
The 800 Kg bombs could only be carried once, 250kg and 500kg bombs could be carried twice.

Juha · Mar 3, 2009

Vincenzo
the radius of action / payload figure of Armstrong Whitworth Whitley Mk V was only a little under Your requirement. It was 1325km radius of action with 1360kg bomb load.

Juha

Vincenzo · Mar 3, 2009

delcyros said:
Vincenzo,

please be consistent with Your specifications. The original specififcations called for a plane (no prototype) to be able to do the job technically. If You now introduce the way planes were used, the B-17 has to be excluded. Practically no bomber flew combat missions with that long range requirements except for the F-223 (once) and the type 96 attack bomber.
Neither the Il-4 nor the TB-7 nor the Halifax nor the B-17 or the Do-217 flew 3000+ km long bombing missions in 1939/40. I doubt that this justifys them to be excluded.

The type 96 attack bomber could accept quite significant warloads. It never carried a 800 Kg torpedo (the japanese navy never fielded a torpedo of this size). It was equipped in 1939 with
the type 91 mod 1 torpedoe (=784 kg weight)
while it carried from 1940 onwards the
type 91 mod 2 torpedoe (=935 kg weight best known for beeing used against Repulse / Prince of Wales in 1941)
normal bombtypes for the mod 21 are
60Kg, 250Kg, 500Kg or 800 Kg (AP/HE) bombs.
The 800 Kg bombs could only be carried once, 250kg and 500kg bombs could be carried twice.

Start from bottom i've doubt on type 96 because i remembered (maybe my fault) that also 500 kg bomb be carried once.
My specifications required non prototypes but also a actually bombers, i want told no planes that are in trainings, tests and so. Don't need that plane flew actually a so long mission in '39/40.
I excluded the Stirling why was declared operational in january 1941, i've no this info for Halifax but deliverd started 23rd november (3 months later of Stirling, flew 1st mission a month later) so i think that also the Halifax were in training. I excluded Do 217 B because this is not a real plane, and the A because it's a recce, true you told this is a bomber but you don't post nothing in support. i'm sorry if i'm not clear.

Vincenzo · Mar 3, 2009

Juha said:
Vincenzo
the radius of action / payload figure of Armstrong Whitworth Whitley Mk V was only a little under Your requirement. It was 1325km radius of action with 1360kg bomb load.

Juha

i read many times info on a range of 1650 miles with 3000 pounds of bomb unlucky this is not same of a radius of 825 miles (1325 km) what's your source?

Juha · Mar 3, 2009

Hello Vincenzo
source is a message in RAF Commands board, the writer wrote that it came from Appendix XI of Chris Ashworth's "RAF Bomber Command, 1936-68". IMHO more or less in line with the info from a couple articles, for ex. the long article on Whitley in Air Enthusiast No 9 which gives the range of Mk V as 1630 mls with 3750lb bomb load.

Juha

delcyros · Mar 3, 2009

Vincenzo said:
Start from bottom i've doubt on type 96 because i remembered (maybe my fault) that also 500 kg bomb be carried once.
My specifications required non prototypes but also a actually bombers, i want told no planes that are in trainings, tests and so. Don't need that plane flew actually a so long mission in '39/40.
I excluded the Stirling why was declared operational in january 1941, i've no this info for Halifax but deliverd started 23rd november (3 months later of Stirling, flew 1st mission a month later) so i think that also the Halifax were in training. I excluded Do 217 B because this is not a real plane, and the A because it's a recce, true you told this is a bomber but you don't post nothing in support. i'm sorry if i'm not clear.

A further three Jumo-engined aircraft were followed by two with 1,550 hp (1156 kW) BMW 139 radials in an attempt to improve performance, but the more advanced BMW 801 of similar output, introduced in late 1939, was adopted for the production Do 217A reconnaissance aircraft, of which eight were built under the designation Do 217A-0. Carrying two cameras and armed with three 7.92 mm (0.31 in) machine guns, these entered service with the Aufklarungsgruppe Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe in 1940.
The Do 217A was followed by five examples of a Do 217C bomber version; the first (Do 217C Vl) was powered by Jumo 211A engines, but the remainder (Do 217C-0) had DB 601As; all were armed with one 15 mm MG 151 cannon and five 7.92 mm (0.31 in) machine-guns, plus a bombload of 6,614 lbs (3000 kg). The first major production version was the Do 217E that appeared in 1940, having a deeper fuselage and an enlarged bomb bay which could accept larger bombs or a torpedo.

Dornier Do 217

A report dating to may 1940 with regard to the order of the battle directly after fall of france lists two Do-217A remaining in the bomber role (one of them servicable) as well as four Fw-200C (two of them servicable).
Recce bomber does not exclude each other activity in the roles. The Ju-86P during BoB was used as a high altitude recce but typically carried two bombs over to England. Likewise, when Oberstleutnant Edgar Petersen formed the Fernaufklärungstaffel with the first Fw-200 recce he made its operational debut on 8 April 1940 with its very first sortie against British shipping in what would better be described as long range bomber role instead. Initially, from July 1940, the Condors simply added their small offensive weight to the Luftwaffe's assault on the UK, usually flying from Bordeaux a wide sweep west of Cornwall and normally west of Ireland, dropping four SD250 bombs and heading for Stavanger, Norway, making the return trip a day or two later. This actually fits Your requirements with regard to timeline, payload, range and operational status.
From August 1940 onwards the Condors got on with their real task and within two months had been credited with 90,000 tonnes of British shipping sunk.

Further, if You accept the operational status as critical limit, You would need to include the G4M, which passed it´s service trials in early 1940 and was declared operational, even if the first production model was not ready until a year later...

delcyros · Mar 3, 2009

wrt to the type 96 attack bomber, Osamu Tagaya (Mitsubishi type 1 Rikko "Betty", in Osprey combat aircraft) writes on p.7:

"The result was the type 96 Land based attack aircraft (G3M), officially adopted for service in 1936, and later code-named "Nell" by the Allies in the Pacific War.
(...)
The initial production model, the G3M, model 11 could carry a 800 Kg* (1764 lbs) payload for 1540nm (1772 st.mls)"

*) note: this relates to a single 800 kg HE bomb. The torpedo in use was the type 91 mod 1, beeing 784 Kg heavy. 800 kg AP-bombs were unaviable until late 1940.
It shows pretty much that the model 11 could carry 800 Kg payload over 2850 km for the very first production model of the G3M.
The model 21 had higher rated engines, allowing to carry the heavier type 91, mod.2 torpedoe as well as greatly increased range (460 nm IIRC).

drgondog · Mar 3, 2009

Vincenzo said:
i'm looking info on Whitley V range (or info like fuel load and fuel conusmption for determine the range). i've this the fuel load is 837 gallons (imperial) i suppose a consumption like 100 galls/hour for cruise (near to double in the climb) and a cruise speed on ~210 mp/h with this it can't take the requirements, but i need more info on eventually auxiliary tanks

I agree D - it has been a 'moving target' and actually a waste of time.

Vincenzo · Mar 3, 2009

Delcyros I knew C was a bomber and i had not idea of they timeline, now i looked maybe the four C were in timeline. so we agree Type 96 model 11 was surely out.

What were the long ranger bombers in '39/40

Major

Senior Master Sergeant

Master Sergeant

Tech Sergeant

Major

Senior Master Sergeant

Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Tech Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Tech Sergeant

Tech Sergeant

Major

Senior Master Sergeant

Users who are viewing this thread

Similar threads