Which aircraft logged the.....

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The USA was not "in the war" for the Bismark. My point is the Bismark and Tirpitz are made out to be wonder ships, when in fact they were decent but certainly not up to fighting the first class BB's of either the USA or Japan. It might have won against a pre-1943 SD class BB, but it would have taken some luck. Against a 1943 SD class BB, it would have taken a huge amount of luck, and against a mid '44 SD class BB, it would have taken a near miracle.

I'm not sure that, had the USA been in the war and had the right ships in the area, the British would have taken "first crack" at the Tiriptz. It would just have made more sense all around to let the USA do it, or to do it as a joint operation (most likely).

My point about the British not helping with Midway is they refused to because they didn't want to leave Madagascar undefended. This makes me laugh, if the Japanese had gone after Madagascar instead of Midway, what was one British Carrier (Arc Royal) going to do to stop them? On the otherhand, if Midway had been lost, Madagascar was ripe for the picking.

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Lunatic
 
dude you make the royal navy sound useless, we had several BBs sitting in the atlantic just waiting for the tirpitz, she WAS a wondership, to fact for the ships that could destryer her and the ships that could catch her couldn't destroy her, but give the RN some credit man...............
 
Plus, the Germans had some of the best guns, ammo, and optics...


Remember H.M.S. Hood?


Four shots fired from Bismarck, a direct hit on the ammo/fuel compartments, on the third shot in foggy weather with near-none visibility, or something similar... (Not that sure of the details, but they're similar)
 

But that was against a British BB.



Lanc,

I'm not trying to knock the RN, but you have to admit their top of the line ships did not stack up in WWII. Yes they had some good BB's, but these were outclassed by the Bismark, the Yamato, and the US South Dakota and Iowa class ships.

The 14/45 guns of the King George class BB's put it at a rather severe disadvangate. These were a few hundred pounds lighter than the 15/45 rounds of the Bismark, and were a couple of hundred fps lower in velocity. The US SD (and Iowa) class BB's mounted 16/55 guns, weighing about 1100 lbs more than the 14/45's, that's 50% greater weight, which is a huge difference. The Nelson class had 16 inch guns, but it was... old.

As you can see from above, the Armor quality of the US BB's was also much superior, and above all, the Fire Control system after the start of 1943 was far far superior to those of any other nation. The SD (or Iowa) class BB's could have destroyed the Bismark from over 30,000 feet with the Bismark never even getting off a shot! And in bad weather (common in the area) or at night the advantage is even more significant, as the US BB's would be able to fire for effect where the Bismark would be firing blind.

Finally, the USA could afford to risk a BB, where Britain could do so much less easily. Let's say the Bismark had survived and the Tirpitz and Bismark had continued raiding convoys. And lets assume no CV's or CVA's could manage to stop them (a big assumption). After the USA entered the war. Once the US Pacific fleet was relatively secure, about the start of 1943, it would have been relatively easy for the USA to deploy a couple of SD class BB's to corner and kill them with British help. Or alternatively, a single Iowa class BB could have been sent out to simply run them down and dispatch them both.

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Lunatic
 
Germans have good ammo? Maybe you should re-read the account of the Hood. While that ship was sunk, the Prince of Wales was hit by numerous shells that failed to explode. Had the Germans had a half-way decent sheel, the RN would have been out two capital ships instead of one (not that it did PoW any good in the long run).

I think the basic point is that a disproportion number of units were deployed to keep an eye on the Tirpitz that was (granted, in hind sight) justified. It would have been a close fight with the KGV class (because of the small 14" guns and iffy turret situation) but the Tirpitz would have faired poorly against a SoDak and have had no chance with a Iowa.
 

I was not making a statement about the shells, just the relative throw weights.

I agree. I think prior to 1943 the Bismark might have had a chance against the SD class BB, but the superior belt armor and deck armor of the SD, along with its much bigger guns, would have given it the edge. After 1943, with the fire control radar and tracking computer, I don't think the Bismark/Tripitz would have stood much of a chance. In fact, I don't think any BB could stand up it. The advantage of being able to fire accurately while engaging in hard evasive manuvers is just too huge to overcome. Every time the enemy straitens out to prepare a shot, it's would take hits. The only way they'd have a chance would be if they managed a lucky hit early on and took out the radar, otherwise, they're toast.

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Lunatic
 
It's nice that you are both saying that the Bismarck couldn't stand up to the post-1943 US BBs (which is true) but the Bismarck sailed in 1941. To stop the Bismarck in 1941, the US would have had to do the same as the Royal Navy did.

You certainly are making the Royal Navy out to be useless. I'm sorry you fail to see that it had been spread from the across almost every ocean in the world.
And where was the USN in the Indian ocean, Dec 1941? Licking their wounds. See, we can all point fingers to say someone wasn't helping the other, so stop it.

How could the Ark Royal help during Midway? Battle of Midway - June 1942. H.M.S Ark Royal SUNK - 13th November 1941 while escorting Malta Conoys.

It'd have a job helping when it was at the bottom of the Med!
 
I believe a few USN ships supported the Torch landings. Mostly the Med was a RN affair, destroying the French, Italian and German fleets in the area. As well as surviving the beating from the Luftwaffe and Regina Aeronautica.
The Royal Navy lost over 200 ships in the Med but still deprived the Afrika Korps of vital supplies.
 
You're talking of Taranto, with 21 unescorted Swordfish - only losing 2? You know the Yamamoto's chief of staff was in Taranto at the time of the attack. The Royal Navys attack on Taranto was where the IJN got the idea for Pearl Harbour, the effectiveness of torps in low water levels of a harbour.
 
Not really, the IJN didn't get the Carriers. The USN still sat licking its wounds for a few months while the IJN (Nagumo with 5 of the 6 Carriers used on Pearl Harbour) gave the Royal Navy hell in the Indian Ocean. Sinking several ships, only taking slight damage on Nagumos flagship, Akagi, from 11 Sqn. Blenheims.
 
AH, I see, a question of symantics. I only knew because I had to present about it once. It was actually operation torch that paved the way for future battles for communications and command and control for combined forces (US and UK).
 
Well, the 120,000 Vichy French didn't put much opposition up to the US landings.
 
French and opposition aren't words that fit together! I heard the Champs Elysee was lined with trees because the Germans like to march in the shade.

There was some oppostiton, but it was pretty weak and quelled relataively quickly. I have an interesting story about a couple of USAAF officers going inland to secure a cease fire with the French during Torch. I will find it and post it in the stories section.
 

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