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I guess that would be the reason why not, not enough of the two stage Merlins to go around. That's to bad. Didn't the Typhoon have a different engine though? Oh well, regardless I guess there were higher priorities for the limited number of Merlins to be had.
Actually, the Hurri IVs got the Merlin XX, boosted to the same limits as the Hurri II. All the Merlin 27s were used for Mosquitos. The IV was a dedicated ground-attack version, so it also got lots of heavy armour plate, and ended up slower than the IIc.
The Me 210 and 410, though comparatively fast, did not work out as daytime fighters but excelled as night-intruders bomber killers so long as they had protection. If they didn't have fighter cover they got hacked down.
The main JU-88 used in the BoB was the Ju 88A-1 with some help from the A-5. The Germans never made things simple, right after the BoB the main production was switched to the Ju 88A-4 with 5 ft more sing span, engines with several hundred more HP each and a much higher gross weight (could actually carry fuel and bombs at the same time) the confusing part is that the A-5 was an A-4 airframe with the engines (or only slightly better ones) than the engines used in the A-1 which did NOT make for sparkling performance.The Ju 88 was somewhat disappointing as a daytime bomber in the BoB but worked out well in Maritime raids in the North and Baltic Sea, in the Bay of Biscay and in the Med, as a tactical / dive bomber in Russia and the Med (up to ~ mid 1943) and for a while as a night fighter, and in other roles. Including as a heavy maritime fighter I'm just learning!
The Griffon and Hurricane is a sore point with the Fish Heads!Supermarine produced a Griffon/Spitfire Proposal and Hawker did the Hurricane?
The Merlins for Mosquitoes were different to regular Merlins because they had reversed coolant flow, which was required to work with the leading edge radiators.
Though otherwise identical, the reverse coolant flow Melrins had different mark numbers to the equivalent standard version.
Going back a couple of posts I've always felt it was to bad they didn't upgrade the Hurricane. From what I've read it was really stable and new pilots could master it fairly quickly. Those are valuable characteristics in wartime or anytime for that matter.
If they just kept cramming more power into it seems like they would end up with something that performed kida like the F6f, maybe no one outstanding performance area but pretty good at everything and those always desirable docile handling characteristics.
Maybe it wasn't practical as it would take away from newer types but doesn't seem like adding more horsepower as it became available would take to much redesign effort.
It's interesting to think about. With additional power and maybe a thinner wing I'm gonna take a guess and say it could have been good for 370, 380 maybe.I think the best way to improve it, albeit pure speculation since they didn't do it, but IMO reducing wingspan and if possible thinning the wings.
Otherwise you can end up with something like the Firefly - 1,700 hp (Griffon) and 316 mph
The reason they didn't work out as daytime fighters was that they were light bombers. Trying to use twin engine light bombers as fighters against single engine fighters was never going to end well for the twin engine plane no matter how many guns you stuffed in the old bomb bay.
Yes it had two 13mm guns firing to the rear but only in rarest of circumstances were you ever going to get both guns to fire at the same target at the same time.
About the only thing you can say for it is that the gunner didn't have to fight the windstream to aim the guns as it was power operated.
I am sorry but in many cases you examples of "obsolete" aircraft don't actually work the way you seem to think.
The main JU-88 used in the BoB was the Ju 88A-1 with some help from the A-5. The Germans never made things simple, right after the BoB the main production was switched to the Ju
(snip)
You may have read an awful lot about the operational history of many of these aircraft ( I would say more than I do) but you seem to lacking in detail knowledge about the actual performance or armament of some of these planes. This makes reaching valid conclusions about the general course of development a bit difficult.
It's interesting to think about. With additional power and maybe a thinner wing I'm gonna take a guess and say it could have been good for 370, 380 maybe.
How would a fighter with a 380 mph top speed and the moaenuverability of the Hurricane and the handling characteristics of the Hurricane fair? Sounds pretty good but I suppose the guys making those descisions knew alot more than I do and they felt there were better ways to focus there efforts.
The Hurricane was used increasingly for ground attack as a fighter bomber or with heavy cannon, for that you need the lift.I bet less drag might even mean more range though I know there is a tradeoff there. Bigger wings provide more lift...
The Hurricane was used increasingly for ground attack as a fighter bomber or with heavy cannon, for that you need the lift.
If speed wasn't an issue then the Seafire LIIc would never have been built or the Sea Hurricane Ib/c allowed 16lbs boost in its Merlin III.But the Hurricanes over Malta, both MkIs and MkIIs, shot down plenty of Ju88s. Their problem was not catching the Ju88s, it was getting past the large number of Bf109F escorts to be able to get a shot at the Ju88s. Sea Hurricanes on the Operation Pedestal run shot down Ju88s, and they were effectively Hurricane Is with Merlin IIIs and the 4-cannon IIc wing! Speed was not the issue.
The landing at Salerno relied on Seafires, and the Germans were well-aware of their capabilities, only sending their Ju88s in at night. Not sure where you got the idea a Seafire couldn't catch a Ju88.
I think if they could have chopped the wing down to 36' - you still probably would have had an exceptionally maneuverable and stable airplane, and almost certainly much faster. The Hurricane as it existed could out turn any German or Italian monoplane (and hang with the biplanes) but was too draggy and slow for front line combat by 1942, and was clearly struggling in 1941. But in 1940 it still looked dangerous as hell in terms of outcomes. The difference is being ~20 mph slower than the enemy planes vs. ~30 - ~50 mph slower.
If you had a Hurricane that was as fast as a Bf 109F then the latter is in serious trouble I think. And the same Hurricane would be dominating the Zero in the Pacific as well.
I bet less drag might even mean more range though I know there is a tradeoff there. Bigger wings provide more lift...
No way, Jose. You can have the speed OR you can have the maneuverability, pick one. If you chop and thin the wings, you're going to sacrifice maneuverability on the altar of speed. That fat, high lift wing and large ailerons, coupled with a light weight are what give you your maneuverability. That fat airfoil is essentially a low speed biplane-era feature, and could be replaced with a thinner higher speed section, but at the cost of greater structural weight and longer runway requirements. Your turn and burn fighter would likely turn into a boom and zoom machine.How would a fighter with a 380 mph top speed and the moaenuverability of the Hurricane and the handling characteristics of the Hurricane fair?
If its a better fighter than the Typhoon it is on par with a Tempest. Are you seriously suggesting that a few mods to the Hurricane, unnoticed until today, would have the Hurricane on par with a Tempest? I think some anti Typhoon propaganda may have led you astray, the Typhoon was the only plane that could chase down FW190 tip and run raiders, Spitfires couldn't that is why the Typhoon was rushed to service, so I don't think any type of souped up or cut down Hurricane would either. You cant add up reductions in drag to produce super performance. The Spitfire was about 30MPH slower than the Mustang with the same engine, this was due to better wing design, better cooling design and better fit/finish. To uprate a Spitfire to be the same as a Mustang needs a completely new plane called a Mustang and probably different production methods and equipment, it is the same only more so with a Hurricane. In any case the RAF had Mustangs first with Allison and then with Rolls Royce engines.A 36 ft wing for the weight of the Hurricane still gives you plenty of lift I would say. Should have no trouble carrying bombs or the 20mm cannon, though if you also had a thinner wing then you'd have to deal with cannon bulges maybe. However I don't think you'd have to have wings as thin as a Spitfire to get substantially better performance out of a Hurricane. They took the A6M2 from a 39 ft wing to a 36 ft wing on the A6M5, with only a moderate increase in engine power*, and it jumped up 20 mph in speed.
If the Hurricane Mk II could really make 330 mph, that would mean arguably a jump in speed to 355 mph. Maybe a few more streamlining efforts and some adjustment to exhaust etc. you might get to 360 mph and now it starts to maybe look plausible to put in a more powerful merlin. 360 mph would put it close to parity with a P-40F and yet it would be more heavily armed with 4 cannon and still quite a bit lighter, so probably better climb and performance ceiling. You also undoubtedly get better roll and a faster dive speed and dive acceleration with the shorter wing.
In fact in some ways that is probably a better fighter than a Typhoon lol.
*When they put the same engine on the A6M2 airframe it only increased the speed by 6.8 mph
Going back a couple of posts I've always felt it was to bad they didn't upgrade the Hurricane. From what I've read it was really stable and new pilots could master it fairly quickly. Those are valuable characteristics in wartime or anytime for that matter.
If they just kept cramming more power into it seems like they would end up with something that performed kida like the F6f, maybe no one outstanding performance area but pretty good at everything and those always desirable docile handling characteristics.
Maybe it wasn't practical as it would take away from newer types but doesn't seem like adding more horsepower as it became available would take to much redesign effort.
How many Hurricanes and Typhoons will you do without? Would you have enough Merlin 61s in 1942 to actually get any more Spitfires?If Hawker wanted to make a better Hurricane they should have just made MkVIII Spitfires instead, all straight from the factory with 96G main 32G combined leading edge and 65G rear tanks, that's the plane the Allies needed in '42.
Yes I know there is a trade off. Smaller wing=lest lift. That's why I didn't mention reducing wing area. Just a bit thinner to reduce drag a bit. I think a thinner wing would reduce lift also the shape being equal but not as much as reduced wing area?No way, Jose. You can have the speed OR you can have the maneuverability, pick one. If you chop and thin the wings, you're going to sacrifice maneuverability on the altar of speed. That fat, high lift wing and large ailerons, coupled with a light weight are what give you your maneuverability. That fat airfoil is essentially a low speed biplane-era feature, and could be replaced with a thinner higher speed section, but at the cost of greater structural weight and longer runway requirements. Your turn and burn fighter would likely turn into a boom and zoom machine.
Cheers,
Wes
It just isn't as simple as that, the Spitfires wing was thinner than the Mustangs but had higher drag at most speeds. The Hurricanes inward closing undercarriage was contained in a box type structure which went quite a distance along the wing this contained the fuel tanks, as SR said the Ailerons go close to the end of the wing.Yes I know there is a trade off. Smaller wing=lest lift. That's why I didn't mention reducing wing area. Just a bit thinner to reduce drag a bit. I think a thinner wing would reduce lift also the shape being equal but not as much as reduced wing area?
So nothing drastic. Just a somewhat thinner wing and more power. Seems like it isn't unreasonable to think you could get another 30, 35 mph and still retain most of it's good flight characteristics. I'm kinda thinking F6f. Alot of wing area but I don't think it had a particularly thick wing did it?
And it had verry good handling. So I've read anyway.
I've just always liked planes that had a reputation for not being tricky to fly. Kinda odd for someone who's not a pilot I know but for whatever reason I always have. I was just thinking if you've got a design that really flys well like the Hurricane then it might be worth pursuing such modification/ improvements.
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