FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
evangilder said:
Yep, another good one too!
Which WWII Axis nation produced most dangerous pilots?
- Thread starter Chiron
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Yep, another good one too!
It all worked against the Japanese though because stories coming back to the line made the troops fight harder and were more willing to die then surrender.
The same applies to the Germans defending East Prussia and Eastern Germany. The horrific tales of Soviet mutilation, torture and rape made the German troops fight to their last breath because it was pointless surrendering, you were going to die a horrific death anyway. May as well take as many of them with you.
The same applies to the Germans defending East Prussia and Eastern Germany. The horrific tales of Soviet mutilation, torture and rape made the German troops fight to their last breath because it was pointless surrendering, you were going to die a horrific death anyway. May as well take as many of them with you.
- Thread starter
- #63
- Thread starter
- #66
evangilder
"Shooter"
If you look at the three days after the end of the war with Germany what the Soviet troops did to the German civilians, it is horrendous. I don't have alot of info on it, but I think Erich and Adler have both mentioned it in other postings.
Here is just one example, there are many stories like this:
Just inside the east Prussian border with Soviet occupied Lithuania, the town of Nemmersdorf was the first to fall (temporarily) into the hands of the victorious Red Army. Overrun by General Gatlitsky's 11th Guards Army, his soldiers, crazy with bloodlust, set about raping, looting and killing with such ferocity that eventually discipline had to be restored to force the soldiers back to fighting the war. From buildings, Russian signs were hung which read 'Soldiers! Majdanek does not forgive. Take revenge without mercy!'. When the Soviet 4th Army took over the town five days later, hardly a single inhabitant remained alive. Women were found nailed to barn doors after being stripped naked and gang raped, their bodies then used for target practice. Many women, and girls as young as eight years old, were raped so often and brutally that they died from this abuse alone. Children were shot indiscriminately and all those trying to flee were crushed to death under the treads of the Soviet tanks. Forty French prisoners-of-war were shot on the spot as spies after welcoming the Red Army as liberators. Seventy one women and one man were found in houses, all dead. All the women, including girls aged from eight to twelve, had been raped.
In other East Prussian villages within the triangle Gumbinnen-Goldap-Ebenrode, the same scenes were witnessed, old men and boys being castrated and their eyes gouged out before being killed or burned alive. In nearby Metgethen, a suburb of Königsberg, recaptured by the German 5th Panzer Division, around 60 women were found in a demented state in a large villa. They had been raped on average 60 to 70 times a day. In nearly every home, the bodies of women and children were found raped and murdered. The bodies of two young women were found, their legs had been tied one limb each between two trucks, and then torn apart when the trucks were driven away in opposite directions. At Metgethen railway station, a refugee train from Konigsberg, consisting of seven passenger coaches, was found and in each compartment seven to nine bestially mutilated bodies were discovered. Alexander Solzhenitsyn, an ex captain in the Soviet Army, recalls, "All of us knew very well that if girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction" (Details of these, and other atrocities, are contained in the Eastern Documentation Section of the German Federal Archives in Berlin)
The orgy of rape by Soviet troops was far greater than at first believed. Even women and young girls, newly liberated from concentration camps in Poland and in Germany, were brutally violated.
Here is just one example, there are many stories like this:
Just inside the east Prussian border with Soviet occupied Lithuania, the town of Nemmersdorf was the first to fall (temporarily) into the hands of the victorious Red Army. Overrun by General Gatlitsky's 11th Guards Army, his soldiers, crazy with bloodlust, set about raping, looting and killing with such ferocity that eventually discipline had to be restored to force the soldiers back to fighting the war. From buildings, Russian signs were hung which read 'Soldiers! Majdanek does not forgive. Take revenge without mercy!'. When the Soviet 4th Army took over the town five days later, hardly a single inhabitant remained alive. Women were found nailed to barn doors after being stripped naked and gang raped, their bodies then used for target practice. Many women, and girls as young as eight years old, were raped so often and brutally that they died from this abuse alone. Children were shot indiscriminately and all those trying to flee were crushed to death under the treads of the Soviet tanks. Forty French prisoners-of-war were shot on the spot as spies after welcoming the Red Army as liberators. Seventy one women and one man were found in houses, all dead. All the women, including girls aged from eight to twelve, had been raped.
In other East Prussian villages within the triangle Gumbinnen-Goldap-Ebenrode, the same scenes were witnessed, old men and boys being castrated and their eyes gouged out before being killed or burned alive. In nearby Metgethen, a suburb of Königsberg, recaptured by the German 5th Panzer Division, around 60 women were found in a demented state in a large villa. They had been raped on average 60 to 70 times a day. In nearly every home, the bodies of women and children were found raped and murdered. The bodies of two young women were found, their legs had been tied one limb each between two trucks, and then torn apart when the trucks were driven away in opposite directions. At Metgethen railway station, a refugee train from Konigsberg, consisting of seven passenger coaches, was found and in each compartment seven to nine bestially mutilated bodies were discovered. Alexander Solzhenitsyn, an ex captain in the Soviet Army, recalls, "All of us knew very well that if girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction" (Details of these, and other atrocities, are contained in the Eastern Documentation Section of the German Federal Archives in Berlin)
The orgy of rape by Soviet troops was far greater than at first believed. Even women and young girls, newly liberated from concentration camps in Poland and in Germany, were brutally violated.
evangilder
"Shooter"
Indeed. But massacres and atrocities like that on a grand scale are leadership driven. Once a few try it and it goes unpunished or unanswered for, it is an encouragement for others. It was a dark time in the history of the Soviet Union.
- Thread starter
- #70
that was almost like Rape of Naking in China.Rape of Naking:
"In December of 1937, the Japanese Imperial Army marched into China's capital city of Nanking and proceeded to murder 300,000 out of 600,000 civilians and soldiers in the city. The six weeks of carnage would become known as the Rape of Nanking and represented the single worst atrocity during the World War II era in either the European or Pacific theaters of war."
"After the destruction of the POWs, the soldiers turned their attention to the women of Nanking and an outright animalistic hunt ensued. Old women over the age of 70 as well as little girls under the age of 8 were dragged off to be sexually abused. More than 20,000 females (with some estimates as high as 80,000) were gang-raped by Japanese soldiers, then stabbed to death with bayonets or shot so they could never bear witness.
"Pregnant women were not spared. In several instances, they were raped, then had their bellies slit open and the fetuses torn out. Sometimes, after storming into a house and encountering a whole family, the Japanese forced Chinese men to rape their own daughters, sons to rape their mothers, and brothers their sisters, while the rest of the family was made to watch."
Some Japanese soldiers even cannibalized the small infants and new born babies. They considered fetus as delicacy as sushi.
What is unique about Japanese atrocities that even today, many Japanese prominent officials deny such event. Germany, in comparison, done much job in helping heal the wound of Jewish as well as Europeans in post war era.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Chiron said:
Rape of Naking:
"In December of 1937, the Japanese Imperial Army marched into China's capital city of Nanking and proceeded to murder 300,000 out of 600,000 civilians and soldiers in the city. The six weeks of carnage would become known as the Rape of Nanking and represented the single worst atrocity during the World War II era in either the European or Pacific theaters of war."
"After the destruction of the POWs, the soldiers turned their attention to the women of Nanking and an outright animalistic hunt ensued. Old women over the age of 70 as well as little girls under the age of 8 were dragged off to be sexually abused. More than 20,000 females (with some estimates as high as 80,000) were gang-raped by Japanese soldiers, then stabbed to death with bayonets or shot so they could never bear witness.
"Pregnant women were not spared. In several instances, they were raped, then had their bellies slit open and the fetuses torn out. Sometimes, after storming into a house and encountering a whole family, the Japanese forced Chinese men to rape their own daughters, sons to rape their mothers, and brothers their sisters, while the rest of the family was made to watch."
Some Japanese soldiers even cannibalized the small infants and new born babies. They considered fetus as delicacy as sushi.
What is unique about Japanese atrocities that even today, many Japanese prominent officials deny such event. Germany, in comparison, done much job in helping heal the wound of Jewish as well as Europeans in post war era.
Not to bang a political drum here folks and bring up old discussions but it appalls me when knowing this happened, people are quick for criticizing the US for dropping the atomic bomb! It could be said that 2 wrongs don't make a right and "Revenge is mine says the lord," but my feeling is "payback is a bitch."
evangilder
"Shooter"
I hear ya, FBJ. It was insane what happened in Nanking. May it never be forgotten, nor repeated.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Chiron said:
Chiron, you're on the money!
evangilder said:
You Bet
- Thread starter
- #74
Here is an article on Naking:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/223038.stm
About the US atomic bombs, it becomes complex when one understand the atrociteis done by Japanese imperial armies and the Japanese government's attitude toward their past. Some would argue that Japanese civilians didnt deserve to be punish for their crime, and one atomic bomb is enough. Others would go as far as to claim that Chinese people have no right to protest against Japan on the issue of war crimes, since China invaded Tibet and killed their own citizens during the Communist revolution and later Cultural Revolution.
I would argue that it is not just to say that modern Jewish people have no right to get compensate from Germany for Holocaust based solely on the fact that they too have acted inhumanly toward Palestinians in Israel. Similarly, Chinese, Koreans, and Western POW too deserve an apology from Japan without any political discrimination and rhetoric.
For the atomic bombs issue, one should also look at a much broad scope. Americans knew the historical importance of the ancient capitals such as Kyoto, and avoided to bomb the cities. And I think thats one side of American politicans who acted consciously without personal hatred toward their enemies.
On the other side, I doubt there wasnt a racial factor contributing to the final decision of droping the 2nd bomb. And revnege may also contributed to that outcome as Japan was responsible for the declaration of hostility to the world peace.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/223038.stm
About the US atomic bombs, it becomes complex when one understand the atrociteis done by Japanese imperial armies and the Japanese government's attitude toward their past. Some would argue that Japanese civilians didnt deserve to be punish for their crime, and one atomic bomb is enough. Others would go as far as to claim that Chinese people have no right to protest against Japan on the issue of war crimes, since China invaded Tibet and killed their own citizens during the Communist revolution and later Cultural Revolution.
I would argue that it is not just to say that modern Jewish people have no right to get compensate from Germany for Holocaust based solely on the fact that they too have acted inhumanly toward Palestinians in Israel. Similarly, Chinese, Koreans, and Western POW too deserve an apology from Japan without any political discrimination and rhetoric.
For the atomic bombs issue, one should also look at a much broad scope. Americans knew the historical importance of the ancient capitals such as Kyoto, and avoided to bomb the cities. And I think thats one side of American politicans who acted consciously without personal hatred toward their enemies.
On the other side, I doubt there wasnt a racial factor contributing to the final decision of droping the 2nd bomb. And revnege may also contributed to that outcome as Japan was responsible for the declaration of hostility to the world peace.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Chiron said:
I call it "payback with interest."
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
Soren said:FLYBOYJ said:
Yes; Right on !
As a group (the Japanese did not use formations much) the lack of arial discipline was their undoing. The arial dsiscipline of the Allies allowed lesser planes like the F4F and P-40s beat them consistently.
The Atomic bombs were dropped for several reasons:
1. The Invasion of Japan would be terribly expensive with regaurds to casulties and the length of the war. As much as 2 years of bloody battles were projected if the Invasion were to happen.
2. Time wise the invasion of Japan would allow Russia into the fray - NOT desired for the above reasons (the brutal occupation of captured lands).
3. Two bombs were dropped to Show the Japanese and the Russians that the first was not a fluke.
4. To show the Russians that the war and associated conquests was OVER.
From what I've seen the Russians were at least Half of the reason for the use of the Atomic bombs.
wmaxt
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
You Guys Rock! 
It is hard to believe people haven't heard of the disgusting Soviet acts late in the war. From the words of an East Prussian talking about her plight in 1944 "...it was our holocaust but no one cared."
Russia, to this day, refuse to apologise for it's acts in Germany and East Europe.
Russia, to this day, refuse to apologise for it's acts in Germany and East Europe.
