WW2 Aviation Mythbusters

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The Germans also did a number of analyses of the octane rating of captured allied fuels, using their own "Oppauer Verfahren" or Oppau Process.

I haven't translated a full description of the process itself, but it basically used a small motor with three small fuel containers. Warmed up the motor on the motor's standard fuel, then tested response against a known standard fuel to set a benchmark, then switched over to the fuel to be tested, which was then compared to the standard.

The result was a continuous octane-rating curve against the full range of air-fuel mixtures.

They also tested 150-octane fuel against C3 knock limits to determine the relative performance of both fuels under supercharging. They didn't have large enough samples to undertake this test against other captured fuels.

Interestingly, they identified 150-octane as an American fuel, as they recovered it from P51-Ds. This gives the lie to some internet grognards who insist 2 TAF was the only unit to use 150.

4oppmany.jpg


Note the B4 is there for comparison and originally appears on a separate document which compares it to standard C3.

3opp150.jpg


Here's the knock limits curve.

1mmhg.jpg


The Germans believed the 150 fuel would run at 2.7 ata, which corresponds quite accurately to + 25lbs boost.

Interestingly, one of their concerns was the high octane content at lean mixtures, which they believed would aid the US escorts in long-range missions. Will dig out the orginal quote later - being yelled at to shut the computer off now.

Edit - For the sake of keeping the thread on-topic, there's the myth that C3 was as good as 150-octane. It clearly wasn't, according to the Germans' own tests. There's also the myth, in some quarters as noted, that only 2 TAF used 150. That's also incorrect, again according to the Germans' own reports.
 
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The Germans also did a number of analyses of the octane rating of captured allied fuels, using their own "Oppauer Verfahren" or Oppau Process.

I haven't translated a full description of the process itself, but it basically used a small motor with three small fuel containers. Warmed up the motor on the motor's standard fuel, then tested response against a known standard fuel to set a benchmark, then switched over to the fuel to be tested, which was then compared to the standard.

The result was a continuous octane-rating curve against the full range of air-fuel mixtures.

They also tested 150-octane fuel against C3 knock limits to determine the relative performance of both fuels under supercharging. They didn't have large enough samples to undertake this test against other captured fuels.

Interestingly, they identified 150-octane as an American fuel, as they recovered it from P51-Ds. This gives the lie to some internet grognards who insist 2 TAF was the only unit to use 150.

Note the B4 is there for comparison and originally appears on a separate document which compares it to standard C3.


Here's the knock limits curve.


The Germans believed the 150 fuel would run at 2.7 ata, which corresponds quite accurately to + 25lbs boost.

Interestingly, one of their concerns was the high octane content at lean mixtures, which they believed would aid the US escorts in long-range missions. Will dig out the orginal quote later - being yelled at to shut the computer off now.

Edit - For the sake of keeping the thread on-topic, there's the myth that C3 was as good as 150-octane. It clearly wasn't, according to the Germans' own tests. There's also the myth, in some quarters as noted, that only 2 TAF used 150. That's also incorrect, again according to the Germans' own reports.

Can you explain what the units are in the first 3 curves? I understand the last one: it is the knock limit pressure given in units of mm of mercury.
what are the 00Z units?

As far as C3 being as good as 100/150 it clearly wasn't, however it seems that "C3" was not a constant formulation whic would leave scope for it to be improved. We know the Germans were experimenting with high octane additives such as triptane and aniline.

While 100/150 was a British formulation (and I believe it was really 110/150 which is why the Germans though it would extend escort range) there was an American formulation known as 115/145 (again note the US emphasis on the lean side). So called standard 100/130 was closer to 102/130 from recollection.
 
Can you explain what the units are in the first 3 curves? I understand the last one: it is the knock limit pressure given in units of mm of mercury.
what are the 00Z units?

As far as C3 being as good as 100/150 it clearly wasn't, however it seems that "C3" was not a constant formulation whic would leave scope for it to be improved. We know the Germans were experimenting with high octane additives such as triptane and aniline.

While 100/150 was a British formulation (and I believe it was really 110/150 which is why the Germans though it would extend escort range) there was an American formulation known as 115/145 (again note the US emphasis on the lean side). So called standard 100/130 was closer to 102/130 from recollection.


OOZ is the "Oppauer Oktan Zahl", or Oppau octane number, which I believe, based on the testing method, iis closer to MON than to RON.

As for the changes to C3, all I can tell you is the curve in the graphs represents the C3 the Germans themselves chose for comparison on the date given.

I have not completed my translation of the report, nor of the description of the Oppauer Verfahren, both of which are in the Fischer-Tropf archive.
 
I am trying to desist from making to many OT posts. I don't start them, I just respond. The point I am making is that the 17 pounder and APDS are both myths in terms of performance. They could be resisted with ordinary armour. Even if the APDS round was well made it still had significantly higher dispersion and was prone to shattering or deflecting from sloped armour and often failed...The 75mm gun of the Panther 7.5 cm KwK 42 was of the same performance and class but few were mounted on trailers. The 17 pounder and APDS were powerfull, but they were also exaggerated.

Yes, this is OT so only a short comment. I have not seen overstatements on 17pdr performance, it could knock out Tiger with its normal APCBC from any angle up to 1800m, if it hit. It's true that usually many forgot to say that 17pdr wasn't as accurate as US 75mm and 76mm gun, but because it could penetrate Tiger's armour anywere, it was usually enough to hit somewhere into the hull or turret of Tiger, or PzIV or StuG. So it was adequate against Tiger up to say 1000m which was usually enough in ETO. I agree that British WWII APDS ammo is usually overrated, it was clearly more inaccurate that APCBC, but was still useful if one had to engage Panther head on, IMHO one had a somewhat better chances to hit and penetrate Panther's frontal armour with APDS than with APCBC. But that was only reasonable situation when there was benefits from use of APDS in 17pdr. IIRC Germans manufactured only 150 7,5cm Pak L/70 guns.

Juha
 
Hello Parsifal
I meant Don's analyze on the guns and ammo used. I have read a couple books on naval operations on Baltic Sea years ago, and recall the ability of PE and Scheer to operate even under fairly constant VVS air attacks in same small area for several days duration while shooting coastal targets. I cannot remember exact days but at least early 45 maybe also in very late 44. In the end PE had to withdrawn because of the wear of its 8" barrels and lack of bunker oil, Scheer was in better position because its Diesel engines, the Diesel oil situation wasn't so critical in spring 45. In the end VVS begame so frustrated on situation that they demanded USAAF strikes against Swinemünde which was used as a base by those fire support ships, maybe even BC's hunt of Lützow was at least partly motivated by Soviet demands even if I don't have any recollection on that.

JUha

Juha

The seetakt series of radars was poorly understood. It is erroneously stated that the Germans (or japanese) didn't have blind fire capabillity and In fact they did likely beating the allies in this area by a few months. Around 1943 the Prince Eugen received its upgraded FuMO 26 radar which measured bearing to an object to within 0.1 degree, measured the height (elevation angle) and also accuratly measured range of both a surface or airborn target. The system was integrated with the FLAK directors.

Also there would have been wide spread use of gyro lead computing sights for 2.0 and 3.7cm FLAK. AFAIKT the main method of securing a hit for all combatents was the use of tracer by this time.
 
Very nice thread guys.

I think I read almost all post in it.

During reading I saw this:

Seafire LIII - 887 Sqn FAA HMS INDEFATIGABLE 1945


SLt G J "Spud" Murphy destroyed 2 A6M5s Zeroes during a raid over Odaki Bay, Japan on 15 Aug 1945 in this aircraft. On returning to INDEFATIGABLE, the pilots learned that a cease fire was to take effect from 0700 the following morning and that 6 long years of war was finally over.

The engagement, by Seafires of 887 and 894 Sqns, escorting Avengers of 820 Sqn, was the final British aerial victory of WW2 and resulted in 8 confirmd kills, 3 probables and 4 damaged.

Just as the first confirmed victory of the war had fallen to the Fleet Air Arm, so had the last.


Very fitting

John

and I would say that the first confirmed victory of the war would go to the Polish Air Force, at least in Europe. 1 September 1939 around 7 o'clock in the morning, Wladyslaw Gnys, flying P.11c, shots down two Do 17E from KG 77.
 
Very nice thread guys.

I think I read almost all post in it.

During reading I saw this:



and I would say that the first confirmed victory of the war would go to the Polish Air Force, at least in Europe. 1 September 1939 around 7 o'clock in the morning, Wladyslaw Gnys, flying P.11c, shots down two Do 17E from KG 77.


I meant the British Airforce. I did mention that in the post but, I should have made it clearer.

John
 
Very nice thread guys.

I think I read almost all post in it.

During reading I saw this:



and I would say that the first confirmed victory of the war would go to the Polish Air Force, at least in Europe. 1 September 1939 around 7 o'clock in the morning, Wladyslaw Gnys, flying P.11c, shots down two Do 17E from KG 77.

In fact IIRC Gnys kills were first non-German ones, the first kill went to a Ju 87 pilot, his name might have been Neumayer, who had just before shot down Gnys' leader.

Juha
 
In fact IIRC Gnys kills were first non-German ones, the first kill went to a Ju 87 pilot, his name might have been Neumayer, who had just before shot down Gnys' leader.

Juha

You are right Juha, though his name was Frank Neubert.
 
You are right Juha, though his name was Frank Neubert.

Hello Marshall
thanks for the correction, it has been years ago when I read on the combat and a short bio on Neubert. Oh, at least I remembered that there is something new (neu) in his name.

Thanks
Juha
 

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