NO one made this claim. Some elements however were.
WW2 Aviation Mythbusters
- Thread starter FLYBOYJ
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The pilots notes give a maxium allowable speed of 130 knots: 150 mph which is little more than the 139mph maxium speed. They weren't working their way at 75-85 mph the entire way to target. Accounts of pilots from both Victorious and Ark Royal talk of entering dives repeatedly.
The attack strategy of the Swordfish was to dive from over 5000ft down to 18ft and release. If you read the pilot accounts you are struck by the following
1 Pilots diving through clouds often starting at 7000ft and not breaking though till 700ft.
(pilots had a rough idea where the Bismark was since many had radar)
2 The pilots all talk of accurate FLAK that would come at them the momment they left cloud and sometimes even when they were in cloud.
Obviously accurate is a relative term but enough to recive shrapnel or to see and feel nearby explosions.
3 The drop height and speed was so low that the observer was waving his hands beside the pilots eyes to time the release of the torpedo so that it would not crash into a trough adn be damaged or hit a breaking wave crest.
4 Burkard Freiherr von Müllenheim-Rechberg, who was in one of the main directors, noted that the gun aimers often could not see the Swordfish which came in low in high sees with a shifting and pitching deck. The Swordfish were often below the freeboard of the ship.
This low flying seems to have been the primary advantages of the Swordfish, much harder to deal with than a faster moving aircraft due to its abillity to exploite the atlantic weather.
So in general long range AAA gunnery was thwared by clouds while at shorter ranges visibillity and sea state provided a degree of protection.
The Bismarks main FLAK directors and heavy 10.5cm were triaxially stabalised. The 3.7cm guns were stabalised and derived rate information from traverse to calculate lead.
There weren't enough 2.0cm guns, that's for sure, and the 3.7cm guns needed an immroved cadence.
To deal with the swordfish would have required a radar that wasn't available till 1943 likely the FuMO 26 which from its high post on the 3 main directors could track the range, bearing and elevation of an airborn target accuratly and provide blind fire settings to the heavy FLAK. It's probably this radar which gave the Prince Eugen is effective FLAK capabilities againalst the Soviets Airforce.
Another radar, proably could have been ready in 1944 was the FuMO 231 euklid which had a 1.5m conical dish and a 25cm wavelenght. It was held up when time was wasted testing captured magnetrons. There was also a system called retting which was a centrimetric radar fitted to quad 20mm guns, it was derived from an AI radar FuG 246.
Comparing the AAA situation in the Nth Atlantic vs the pacific is I think inapproprate given the "passive" oceans calmer seas and much better visibillity.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
I'm gonna give everyone a warning to be civil or infractions will be given. If you have a beef about another thread, take it there.
Lets get back on track with "Aviation' myths.
and before anyone says so, I realize I went OT with the Kursk comment. Won't happen again.
Lets get back on track with "Aviation' myths.
and before anyone says so, I realize I went OT with the Kursk comment. Won't happen again.
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Back to Myths....
Here are three that may interest you.
"Put enough guns on a bomber and it will fight its way to the target without escorts."
Unfortunately, the more guns and ammunition it carries, the smaller it's bomb load, hence more missions are required to destroy a given target, which gives the enemy more chances to attack the bomber, which requires more guns to defend itself....
"Malta was defended by three Gladiators named Faith, Hope and Charity."
Actually four Sea Gladiators (named Faith, Hope, Charity and Desperation), of 261 Squadron RAF, were involved in the early air-defence of Malta. Later supplemented by a few Hurricanes. The basis of much exaggeration.
"The Japanese Zero fighter was a copy of a Western design."
Quite the contrary, as it had many technical innovations and was a completely original design.
John
Here are three that may interest you.
"Put enough guns on a bomber and it will fight its way to the target without escorts."
Unfortunately, the more guns and ammunition it carries, the smaller it's bomb load, hence more missions are required to destroy a given target, which gives the enemy more chances to attack the bomber, which requires more guns to defend itself....
"Malta was defended by three Gladiators named Faith, Hope and Charity."
Actually four Sea Gladiators (named Faith, Hope, Charity and Desperation), of 261 Squadron RAF, were involved in the early air-defence of Malta. Later supplemented by a few Hurricanes. The basis of much exaggeration.
"The Japanese Zero fighter was a copy of a Western design."
Quite the contrary, as it had many technical innovations and was a completely original design.
John
evangilder
"Shooter"
I'm going to go one further. The next personal attack that takes place in this thread will result in a 30 day ban. If you are getting frustrated on a subject, either walk away or go take a walk. There is NO reason to let a discussion degrade into personal attacks, which is a sign that your own argument is weak.
Now calm down everyone, this is supposed to be an intelligent discussion.
Now calm down everyone, this is supposed to be an intelligent discussion.
parsifal
Colonel
Air Superiority is about the number of losses you take. That's a part of it, but a minor part. The important bit about Air superiority is the freedom and capability to do what you want to do, where you want to do it , at tolerable costr
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Interesting point Michael, I was thinking about the WW1 'Fokker scourge' when I read your post. Would AS also include a techical advance that gave one side 'the edge' ?
John
I understood it was a media invention > Faith, Hope and Charity. The 4th aircraft was called 'Desperation' but this was first used in the 1980's..
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
parsifal
Colonel
if the theory is applied correctly, Technical development, can affect the level of Air Superiority. A qualitative edge in the fighters that causes a massive increase in losses, or increases in Bomber ranges or accuracy can all affect the equation.
Air Superiority is mostly about "control", and control translates to being able to do stuff. Fighters either enable your aircraft to be able to do stuff, or prevent or make it cost prohibitive for your opponent to do the same.
The USAAC tried a experiment on the heavy armed bomber approach. The B-40, a B-17 fitted with at least 18 .50's, with versions up to 30 guns, also versions with bigger than .50 cal. in some positions. Because of the extra turret drag a higher throttle position had to be used to keep up with the regular B-17's, so range was less. After the main formation had dropped it's bombs the B-40 couldn't keep up at all with the lightened B-17's.
One B-40 was damaged by flak, and then shot down by a Luftwaffe fighter. Not a success, no matter how you measure it. With the faults it had evident from the beginning, I wonder why they even tried it in combat. I guess it was the desperate times .
One B-40 was damaged by flak, and then shot down by a Luftwaffe fighter. Not a success, no matter how you measure it. With the faults it had evident from the beginning, I wonder why they even tried it in combat. I guess it was the desperate times .
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
yep, YB-40s really didn't work.
Another myth:
There never was an Italian pilot who flew a captured P-38 and attacked bombers and then had a 'classic' dogfight.
http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/...5-the-strangest-aerial-duel-of-world-war-two/
Another myth:
There never was an Italian pilot who flew a captured P-38 and attacked bombers and then had a 'classic' dogfight.
http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/...5-the-strangest-aerial-duel-of-world-war-two/
Edgar Brooks
Senior Airman
No it wasn't; there were six Gladiators, N5520 was "Faith," N5531 was "Hope," and N5519 was "Charity." Also flown were N5522, N5524 N5529.
"Desperation" was a Phantom (one of four,) in the Falklands after the war with Argentina; the other three were given the F, H, C names because the Flight no., given to the Phantoms, was the same as that given to the Gladiator Flight in Malta. Desperation is just a manifestation of RAF black humour.
The Malta names were not a "media invention"; they came from a chance remark by Corporal Harry Kirk, who saw the three flying together, and felt that they reminded him of a brooch, sporting three hearts, owned by his mother, which had the names engraved on it. The report, about him, appeared in the "London Star" newspaper in March 1958.
Group Captain George Burges disagrees.
"Thus it was only during our training period, before the war started for us, and for only about the first week or ten days of the war period that the population ever saw three Gladiators in the air together – from then on it was two and sometimes only one. During this period none of us ever heard the aircraft referred to as 'Faith, Hope and Charity' and I do not know who first used the description. Nevertheless, the sentiment was appropriate because the civil population certainly prayed for us and displayed such photographs as they could get hold of. There is no doubt that the Gladiators did not 'wreak death and destruction' to many of the enemy, but equally they had a very profound effect on the morale of everybody in the island, and most likely stopped the Italians just using the island as a practice bombing range whenever they felt like it."
"Thus it was only during our training period, before the war started for us, and for only about the first week or ten days of the war period that the population ever saw three Gladiators in the air together – from then on it was two and sometimes only one. During this period none of us ever heard the aircraft referred to as 'Faith, Hope and Charity' and I do not know who first used the description. Nevertheless, the sentiment was appropriate because the civil population certainly prayed for us and displayed such photographs as they could get hold of. There is no doubt that the Gladiators did not 'wreak death and destruction' to many of the enemy, but equally they had a very profound effect on the morale of everybody in the island, and most likely stopped the Italians just using the island as a practice bombing range whenever they felt like it."
Linen (Flax which also supplies linseed) is a plant the grows in Europe, you rot the stems to get at the fibre. The Irish do this in bogs. Cotton, is a different plant. Egyptian cotton is known for its length of fibre. If you are a bit posh you buy cotton with high strand counts.
One bizzare aspect of the whole Bismarck AAA performance is the repeated claims by allied flyers that her fire was accurate. They remark on how they were often found instantly while emerging from clouds and though the guns were directed by radar. A catalina was driven of and Swordfish and Fulmars acting as contact aircraft kept a great distance. Yet she shot down nothing (apart from Fulmar with splash from her main gun) so this is somewhat puzzling.
The RN certainly was thinking: they were adding GRUB (gyro rate unit boxes) to improve their HACS (High Angle Control System) and Type 285 ranging radar which was available for the heavy AAA at the time of Denmark straights.
They used the same radar, now called Type 282, to range for the pom pom with a lead computing director and remote power control however at the time of the Battle of the Denmark straights Type 282 radar was not fitted to any ships and the ranging was still optical and the Mk IV director and mount was not remote power control but was 'follow the pointer'. But I think this wasn't enough.
I believe no Navy in the world possesed adaquet equipment to have driven of the Swordfish at that time (April 1941). The USN, known for its heavy AAA armament was not yet in the war at the time and wouldn't be for 18 months.
To do that what was required was full blind fire radar capabillity with highly accurate range measurment, moreover it needed to be integrated not only into the heavy FLAK but the medium and light. The Kriegsmarine had blind fire for the heavy FLAK in 1942 with flakleit-g on the main director of the prinze eugen in 1942 (funny owls ear antena) and latter replaced in 1943 with FuMO 26 which had a sort of phase steering for height finding.
You also need circuits that can measure range as accuratly as possible; better than 10m to set the fuzes.
By the time the USN entered the war the Tirpitz had greatly improved her FLAK as had every other navy. The USN benefitted from European experience.
A big improvement on the allied side was the 40mm boffors which had outstanding high velocity ballistics and a good rate of fire unmateched by any gun. The gun when aimed by a primitive director away from the gun smoke that compensated for parrallax and computed lead using a target at 4000 yards assumption. The gunner used tracer to sprinkle that target. The gun mount and its crew were rotated by remote power control. It finally filled the gap bwtween heavy FLAK and the 20mm equipment.
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Edgar Brooks
Senior Airman
I don't really care; how many Group Captains speak with corporals on a friendly one-to-one basis? If you have proof that Kirk wasn't there, didn't say it, and his mother never owned a brooch, we can look for a different reason.
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Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Back on topic..
"Stable aircraft are safe aircraft."
A high priority was put on stability with early World War One aircraft, but it was eventually realised that such aircraft produced poor pilots who couldn't cope with extreme flying situations when they occurred.
"Carrier-borne fighters require an observer/navigator for safety."
It was assumed that a fighter pilot would be unable to find his way back to the aircraft carrier without a navigator in the back seat pointing the way. This inevitably led to large heavy slow naval fighters such as the Fairey Fulmar. Fortunately, the Sea Hurricane and Wildcat were available to plug the gap.
John
"Stable aircraft are safe aircraft."
A high priority was put on stability with early World War One aircraft, but it was eventually realised that such aircraft produced poor pilots who couldn't cope with extreme flying situations when they occurred.
"Carrier-borne fighters require an observer/navigator for safety."
It was assumed that a fighter pilot would be unable to find his way back to the aircraft carrier without a navigator in the back seat pointing the way. This inevitably led to large heavy slow naval fighters such as the Fairey Fulmar. Fortunately, the Sea Hurricane and Wildcat were available to plug the gap.
John
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
Why wouldn't they , I know the RAF is pretty snobbish but I can't say the same for other air arms I've been associated with
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Stanford Tuck was a gent and had the manners to treat everyone he came across well.
Its not snobbery Neil, its basic manners.
John
