WW2 USN Strategic Bombing Capability

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Your curiosity seems endless, MM.
I sometimes forget your age :)

Building up a new Chinese Empire was a major premise for Japanese to invade like Mongolians and Manchurians did in their old times.
Japanese settlers in Manchukuo were already happy to speak Chinese and accept the local culture.
If everything had gone well, the country of Japan would have been disappeared to be a part of China in the 21st century.
The term "China" originally means "The center of the world" to be adored by Asians.
So, it was a simple story.

So in the long term, the US economy would have benefited from supporting Japan's expansion, the Western colonies need not have been invaded, stability brought to a long unstable China and a greater ability by the West to contain Germany, Italy and the USSR.
 
So in the long term, the US economy would have benefited from supporting Japan's expansion, the Western colonies need not have been invaded, stability brought to a long unstable China and a greater ability by the West to contain Germany, Italy and the USSR.
Remember that the U.S. didn't start applying economic sanctions against Japan until 1938. Then events between 1938 and 1940 saw greater restrictions imposed on Japan such as financial assets frozen, exclusion from the Panama Canal, halting the sale of scrap iron and finally, the termination of crude oil sales.

Prhaps if Japan had used a "kinder, gentler" approach to conquest, coupled with a more pro-active diplomacy, then perhaps they could have warded off U.S. sanctions...at least for a while longer.
 
Your curiosity seems endless, MM.
I sometimes forget your age :)

Building up a new Chinese Empire was a major premise for Japanese to invade like Mongolians and Manchurians did in their old times.
Japanese settlers in Manchukuo were already happy to speak Chinese and accept the local culture.
If everything had gone well, the country of Japan would have been disappeared to be a part of China in the 21st century.
The term "China" originally means "The center of the world" to be adored by Asians.
So, it was a simple story.

Manchukuo011.jpg

1935 propaganda poster of Manchukuo promoting "harmony" between Japanese, Chinese, and Manchu. The caption, written from right to left, says: "With the help of Japan, China, and Manchukuo, the world can be in peace." The flags shown are, left to right: the flag of Manchukuo; the flag of Japan; the "Five Races Under One Union" flag of Republic of China.
 
"Kinder gentler"? In the land of Bushido? Come on now!
In the land of Bushido, the Japanese Military didn't commit various acts against her own people...this same restraint, if applied to the occupied territories, would have had a different reaction from the League of Nations and the world in general.

Better treatment of military prisoners would have also had a lesser impact on public sentiment.

It is a fact that the Imperial Japanese were hardasses, but they would not have lost face if they took less of a hardline to the occupied territories. There were even several occasions where some commanders were known to be lenient to those that they were in charge of.
 
Manchukuo011.jpg

1935 propaganda poster of Manchukuo promoting "harmony" between Japanese, Chinese, and Manchu. The caption, written from right to left, says: "With the help of Japan, China, and Manchukuo, the world can be in peace." The flags shown are, left to right: the flag of Manchukuo; the flag of Japan; the "Five Races Under One Union" flag of Republic of China.

On the other hand:
An Investigation of Global Policy with the Yamato Race as Nucleus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Shinpachi, this is a mind-blowing concept! Japan to merge into China? And I suppose, to create a new dynasty based on Bushido and the Imperial lineage of Japan? Wouldn't that have poked Mao in the eye!
"Hey Liz, move over; the US is coming back to the fold! We're gonna merge into the UK and save you from your Brexit disaster, but you're gonna have to yield your throne to the Trump Dynasty!"

Wasn't Japan to China like UK to Roman Empire or EU ?
Totally off-topic with apology but Manchukuo was established based on Shinto, not Bushido.
Last Emperor's younger brother married a Japanese Princess and had babies for the next step but the war was over.
 
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In the land of Bushido, the Japanese Military didn't commit various acts against her own people...this same restraint, if applied to the occupied territories, would have had a different reaction from the League of Nations and the world in general.

Better treatment of military prisoners would have also had a lesser impact on public sentiment.

It is a fact that the Imperial Japanese were hardasses, but they would not have lost face if they took less of a hardline to the occupied territories. There were even several occasions where some commanders were known to be lenient to those that they were in charge of.

(Shinpachi, correct me if I'm wrong!) To be defeated and die fighting is honorable; to be defeated and captured alive is shamefully dishonorable. That's my "gai-jin" understanding of Bushido. Do you truly expect that it would be possible in that environment for any "honorable" soldier or officer to treat POWs or defeated populations of "inferior" people in a "kinder gentler" way? Historically, those that did so were reprimanded, relieved, or shipped home in dishonor; a fact that usually still failed to save them from being executed as war criminals by the US. The IJA had only recently (in the long view of Japanese history) allowed non-Samurai into the officer corps and conscripted men from the lower classes to bear arms. This created an atmosphere of competition, if you will, where those not raised in the Samurai tradition felt pressured to be "more Samurai than the Samurai". Officers were treated with great brutality while in training, and enlisted troops got that at all times. Thus what we consider brutality became the norm for them. The concept of "pampering" a bunch of dishonored "gai-jin" scum just didn't make any sense to them. They weren't diplomats and they weren't known for their cosmopolitan outlook.
 
There is a level of comtempt that can be maintained while still being in a humanitarian capacity.

For example, the Germans treated the U.S. and British POWs in a far more humanitarian capacity than they did the Soviet POWs.

There would be no losing face or infringement of honor to treat prisoners within a certain level of decency, but such events like the Bataan and Sandakan marches, the Burma railroad or the "Hell Ships", are beyond upholding a code.

Just so that you know, I am fully aware of Bushido and the virtues.
And allow me to share with you, those virtues of Bushido:
1. Rectitude
2. Courage
3. Benevolance (Mercy)
4. Politeness (Morality)
5. Honesty and Sincerity
6. Honor
7. Loyalty
8. Character (Self-Control)

So you see, the brutal treatment of prisoners (those defeated or weaker than the warrior) can actually be contradictory to Bushido.
 
Educated officers understood not only Bushido but western military standards like Geneva Convention very well but ordinary soldiers who were mainly from peasant families didn't. Therefore, our military taught them basic rules like "Obey your officer's order", "Save your lives for the future contribution" or "Don't be captured alive" but these rules had nothing to do with Bushido.
Rules were summarized in a military note book like this picture and soldiers were ordered to bring it to read again and again.

Military_notebook_IJA.JPG
 
Shinpachi, thank you for the informative post. Question: Just how educated were IJA officers? Were they all academy or university graduates, or did they have the equivalent of our Officer Candidate Schools where applicants with less education could (back in the day) earn a commission? Our armed forces had a lot of freshly-minted officers with as little as one year or less of college.
 
For example, the Germans treated the U.S. and British POWs in a far more humanitarian capacity than they did the Russians.

Of course. The Brits and the Yanks were nearly civilized, almost Aryans. The Russkis were savage Slav untermenschen!
 
While this thread has drifted off topic it has developed into an illuminating dialogue on Japanese perceptions, realities, etc.

Shin, you have expressed no surprise that the Japanese leadership would trust Stalin to negotiate peace with the Allies aka the USA .... would trust Stalin to renew the non-agression treaty the two countries has signed after Nomonhon, in 1939.

So, Shin, I am curious about general perceptions about Nomonhon in Japan. Nomonhon has always been a matter of interest and empathy for me .... my only "academic" source is Alvin Coox's tomb "Nomonhon", written from the Japanese perspective. It was a very depressing read for me ... the incident was so purposeless .... and yet the outcome was so historically significant.

Without security in the Far East Stalin could never have stripped forces from the Far East in November 1941 and thrown them in front of Moscow. That security came from the confidence of having crushed the Japanese Army in Mongolia ... and that crushing .... included a Soviet strategy to bag as many Japanese prisoners as possible .... these POWs would be enslaved by the Soviets and declared "dead" back home in Japan.

Japanese Military leadership under-estimated the Soviet Army and System very badly ... and they made the same mistake again at Pearl Harbor. In both wars the Japanese forces fought with their usual ferocity, discipline and elan. The pictures are images of the human faces and ironies of an under-appreciated war.
463267694.jpg
457311554.jpg
Khalkhin_Gol_Captured_Japanese_soldiers_1939.jpg
 
Shinpachi, thank you for the informative post. Question: Just how educated were IJA officers? Were they all academy or university graduates, or did they have the equivalent of our Officer Candidate Schools where applicants with less education could (back in the day) earn a commission? Our armed forces had a lot of freshly-minted officers with as little as one year or less of college.

In the army academy, 2 years for preparatory and 2 years for main course.
They were educated in Prussian style though I have no exact idea about it except Spartan training was adopted there.
Most officers came from the army academy and 20% of them were also graduates of the army college.
Ordinary soldiers also had chances to become officers but not so many.
 
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While this thread has drifted off topic it has developed into an illuminating dialogue on Japanese perceptions, realities, etc.

Shin, you have expressed no surprise that the Japanese leadership would trust Stalin to negotiate peace with the Allies aka the USA .... would trust Stalin to renew the non-agression treaty the two countries has signed after Nomonhon, in 1939.

So, Shin, I am curious about general perceptions about Nomonhon in Japan. Nomonhon has always been a matter of interest and empathy for me .... my only "academic" source is Alvin Coox's tomb "Nomonhon", written from the Japanese perspective. It was a very depressing read for me ... the incident was so purposeless .... and yet the outcome was so historically significant.

Without security in the Far East Stalin could never have stripped forces from the Far East in November 1941 and thrown them in front of Moscow. That security came from the confidence of having crushed the Japanese Army in Mongolia ... and that crushing .... included a Soviet strategy to bag as many Japanese prisoners as possible .... these POWs would be enslaved by the Soviets and declared "dead" back home in Japan.

Japanese Military leadership under-estimated the Soviet Army and System very badly ... and they made the same mistake again at Pearl Harbor. In both wars the Japanese forces fought with their usual ferocity, discipline and elan. The pictures are images of the human faces and ironies of an under-appreciated war.
View attachment 348119 View attachment 348120 View attachment 348121

As wrote somewhere in this forum before, Nomonhan Incident was a mere regional conflict for Japanese and nothing more and nothing less.
Soviet troops might have fought Nomonhan with its full power for 4 months but Kwantung Army fought it with no permission and no support from Imperial GHQ in Tokyo. When other IJA troops in the Southern China began to move to the Russian borader to support Kwantung Army, Stalin suggested the cease fire to declare his victory. Such a man.

Nice pictures, MM.
Thanks for sharing :thumbleft:
 
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The consequences of this were far reaching:
As wrote somewhere in this forum before, Nomonhan Incident was a mere regional conflict for Japanese and nothing more and nothing less.
Soviet troops might have fought Nomonhan with its full power for 4 months but Kwantung Army fought it with no permission and no support from Imperial GHQ in Tokyo. When other IJA troops in the Southern China began to move to the Russian borader to support Kwantung Army, Starlin suggested the cease fire to declare his victory. Such a man.

Nice pictures, MM.
Thanks for sharing :thumbleft:

From Wikipedia,

After the Nomonhan incident, the Kwantung Army was purged of its more insubordinate elements, as well as proponents of the Hokushin-ron ("Northward Advance") doctrine who urged that Japan concentrate its expansionist efforts on Siberia rather southward towards China and Southeast Asia.[4]

If true, the results of the Battle of Lake Khasan in 1938 and Battle of Nomonhan in 1939 may have had global consequences.
 
"... Stalin suggested the cease fire to declare his victory. Such a man."

In all fairness, Shin, Stalin suggested a truce days before he signed the Treaty of Non-Agression with Hitler .... Japan's Axis Partner .... thus fixing Japan strategically for the period from 1939 to August, 1945.

Such a poker player.

That a militant radical 'rump' within the IJA could blunder into a war without direction from Tokyo over a matter as trivial as grazing land for cavalry speaks volumes about the situation in 1939, IMHO.

1,000s of Japanese soldiers disappeared into Siberia ... unacknowleged.

A very sad affair.
 
"
1,000s of Japanese soldiers disappeared into Siberia ... unacknowleged.
A very sad affair.

From time to time I dwell on all the different folks who disappeared in USSR/Siberia.
Folks from many countries - even Russia's allies.
How many Americans disappeared there?
And it goes on past WWII.
How many Americans from the Korean War disappeared there?
The Vietnam War?
 
1,000s of Japanese soldiers disappeared into Siberia ... unacknowleged.
A very sad affair.

Sorry but I should have told you about them much earlier when you talked about your younger days memoir.

Japanese government and historians have ever researched the missing 1,000 Japanese in Russia before.
Most of them refused repatriation in the POW exchange as they thought it disgrace to be known as POWs.
They stayed behind in Russia as Soviet citizens.

However, when the WW2 was over, a few of them joined "new" Japanese POWs in the labor camp to repatriate during 1947-1956.
 
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"


That a militant radical 'rump' within the IJA could blunder into a war without direction from Tokyo over a matter as trivial as grazing land for cavalry speaks volumes about the situation in 1939, IMHO.

It wasn't just 1939. The Kwantung Army was rife with radical ultra-nationalist officers way back into the 20s, and often had the "tail wagging the dog" by taking aggressive action on their own without authorization from Tokyo. (Manchuria 1931, China proper 1937, Siberia 1938, Mongolia 1939). Presented with a fait accompli and troops in contact, the High Command couldn't stomach the embarrassment of ordering a withdrawal and court marshaling officers for displaying their devotion to the destiny of the empire. In many cases, these radicals were sent to the Kwantung to get them out of Tokyo where they were prone to engaging in political plots and assassinations.
 

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