WWII Submarines

[parsifal]

Its arguable I admit. However, on the assumption that the Type XXIs were entering service from middle of '43, and the germans were not rupturing on the Eastern Front, the Type XXI would have meant the battle of Atlantic was not decided as it was from March 1943. A failure to bring the KM to heel in the Atlantic puts the whole second front strategy in doubt, a more fl;exible response in the East, more realistically matched to german capabilities, instead of overstretching to the Stalingrad conclusion, means the Russians may well be forced to the peace table...

There are a lot of ifs, at the top of which has to be put Hitler and his leadership team. they were incapable of thinking in these terms, and therein lies your reasons for the germans defeat. And of course, the fact that Germansy allowed herself to fight too many wars at the same time, with insufficient resources

 

[stug3]

Shuttle service for shipwrecked persons from the RMS Laconia between U156 (foreground) and U507 (background) as they redistribute the rescued men between them on 15th September 1942. Picture taken by Oblt. z. S. Leopold Schuhmacher.

 

[fastmongrel]

A great looking ship, and I think a design with great potential to cause an upset if introduced earlier

If (Big If) the KM could have got a large number of XXIs at sea they would have caused trouble. However even if the production line had got rolling in 43 the XXIs arent going to be in service for probably 6 months to a year and by early 44 I think the Allies had enough carriers, escorts and merchantmen to deal with anything the KM could throw at them. Sinkings and casualties would go up but I cant honestly see a third Happy Time happening. The XXI would need to be in service in large numbers well before mid 43 to have any hope of effecting the Battle of the Atlantic.

 

[DonL]

Debatable!

From what we know today and the very detailed tests of the US Navy and also from the tests with the Guppy program (which submarines weren't as advanced as the XXI), a lot of chaos would be at the Atlantic, if Gerrmany could manage to bring hundreds of submarines in action. D-Day would be very questionable.
Conventional ASW wasn't this effective against the XXI, also a/c's and their radar needed a lot of luck to detect a snorkeling XXI.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww...-really-wonder-weapon-32612-2.html#post904635

 

[fastmongrel]

Debatable!

From what we know today and the very detailed tests of the US Navy and also from the tests with the Guppy program (which submarines weren't as advanced as the XXI), a lot of chaos would be at the Atlantic, if Gerrmany could manage to bring hundreds of submarines in action. D-Day would be very questionable.
Conventional ASW wasn't this effective against the XXI, also a/c's and their radar needed a lot of luck to detect a snorkeling XXI.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww...-really-wonder-weapon-32612-2.html#post904635

I agree with everything you say but its a question of tonnage can the German shipyards build XXIs fast enough and early enough. The XXI was nothing revolutionary if each part of it was taken individually but putting everything together and building them in the numbers required isnt going to happen in 42 which is when the boats have to be built then crews trained to get them into service in large numbers for say late 43. By late 43 Allied (look for pictures of Kaisers west coast yards) shipyards are churning out hulls like shelling peas. Can German U Boats sink enough merchant hulls to stop D Day I dont think so, delay it not sure there either the Torch Landings went ahead when the U Boats were sinking lots of hulls.

By 44 the USN could if required pull carriers and escorts from the Pacific (Adm King would have blown a fuse) and there would be so many escort groups that Wolf Pack tactics arent going to work, any boat using its radio is going to be triangulated with HuffDuff and be chased deep by VLR aircraft, carrier aircraft and hunter groups of ASW vessels. Even if the Allies couldnt sink many XXIs they can disrupt them enough to get sufficent convoys through. After all even during the Happy Times 90% of convoys got through pretty much unscathed.

Its a numbers game and a brutal game but I dont believe the KM had the numbers to stop or delay D-Day substantially even with say Walther boats and the latest Electric fish. Its the old Sherman v Panther numbers again it might take 5 Shermans to kill a Panther but if one side has 10,000 Shermans and the other has 1,000 Panthers who comes out on top.

 

[stug3]

The Free French submarine FFS JUNON at a buoy in Plymouth Sound. She was now operating alongside the Royal Navy and was selected for Operation Muskatoon mission in Norway because her profile was closer to a U-boat than British submarines. It was hoped that if she had to surface in the shallow waters into the Fjords she was less likely to cause alarm.

 

[stug3]

X-Craft 25 underway in Loch Striven, near Rothesay with Lieut J E Smart, RNVR, the Commanding Officer on deck by the conning tower. 4 X Craft attacked battleship TIRPITZ at her anchorage in Alten Fjord in Norway, 9/22/43. X6 and X7 had successfully dropped their charges, disabling the the Tirpitz until April 1944.

Sub Lieutenant K C J Robinson, RNVR, of Crosby, Liverpool, a Commanding Officer in an X-craft at the periscope whilst sailing in Rothesay Bay.

HMS Truculent, one of the conventional submarines that towed the X craft across the North Sea for the attack.

An aerial reconnaissance photograph of Alten Fjord showing the German battleship TIRPITZ at her anchorage where the Tirpitz was attacked and damaged by British midget submarines. Note the L shaped torpedo net around the ship.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Went and saw U-505 this weekend in Chicago.

Wow!

 

[parsifal]

worth seeing then I take it..... any shots???

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeah I will post some up in the next few days.

 

[fastmongrel]

Great photos stug but one teensy little gripe Lt Robinsons home town Crosby is near Liverpool and has it as its current postal town but it has never been part of Liverpool and at the time the correct address would have been Crosby Lancashire. Us pedants are such a pain

 

[stug3]

USS Sculpin (SS-191) off San Francisco, California, on 1 May 1943, following an overhaul.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Went and saw the U-505 in Chicago a few weeks ago. Type IXC U-Boot. Very, very, very impressive how they restored her and set her up in the Museum.

Did not get to go inside the U-Boot because the tickets for going inside of it were sold out. That's okay though, because my wife was not able to go to the Museum, so we have to go back. We will just buy the tickets to go inside in advance and check it out again in the next few months.

Here are some pics that I took...

 

[silence]

If you haven't read R.Adm. Daniel Gallery's book on the U-505, pick up a copy. He commanded the ASW group that captured her. Its a helluva story: fencing, fighting, torture, revenge, giants, monsters, chases, escapes, true love....

U-505 (Original Title: 20 Million Tons Under the Sea): Daniel V. Gallery: 9780446320122: Amazon.com: Books

 

[GrauGeist]

We have photos stored away somewhere of the subs my Uncle Fred served aboard in the PTO (USS Grayling-SS209 USS Cavalla-SS244)

I'll see if I can dig them up scan them

 

[parsifal]

thanks for posting Adler

 

[vinnye]

I love the photos!
Just looking at the gun platform behind the conning tower - must have caused some drag, maybe evn noise?

 

[meatloaf109]

The last time I saw the U-505, she was still outside and looked a little worse for wear. They have done a magnificent job of protecting and preserving a one of a kind intact U-boot!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You are correct, I bought a book in the gift shop that talks about the history if U-505 from beginning to its final resting spot inside the museum. Right up into the 80's she was sitting outside falling apart.

 

[meatloaf109]

I think it was in 1975. My memory is fuzzy.
I remember touring the "boot" with my dad. He was sunk as a merchant marine sailor three times. Once he spent over thirty days in a lifeboat. The weird thing is he held no rancor for the Germans. When he joined the U.S.N. and was subjected to kamikaze attacks, but wasn't sunk, he held a hatred for all things Japanese until the end of his days.
Go figure.....