Zyzygie’s Mumbles and Rambles

[GrauGeist]

Agreed...

Perhaps the only exception to this would be the units (KGs and JVs) operating from the forest alongside the Autobahn - it would make better sense to tow them out onto the line unless it was an alarm-start.

 

[pbehn]

I dont know if meteors and lightnings were towed to the end of the runway or not but maybe they should have been because quite a few ran out of fuel in peacetime.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

If you're operating in dire straights, have limited fuel or have a mission profile that forces you to operate your aircraft at the maximum extent of it's endurance, then towing them to the runway will work. If you have an operating control tower with other aircraft operating near by, this could present issues. Fuel burn during start up and taxi is usually minimal, where the issue presents itself is if you taxi out and have to wait on a taxi way or run way with an idling engine(s).

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I thought the only real problem with the 262 was engine life, this isnt a problem of aircraft design or even the engine design just a shortage of very exotic metals. Some pilots were much better than others at prolonging engine life (I read somewhere on this forum). Hardly a surprise, it was the first jet to go into combat service so everyone was learning.

I am sure the first meteor pilots had the same experience learning rapidly from hard lessons what the do's and don'ts are certainly the F80 had its problems but went on to be produced in large numbers

I think many authors sensationalize this whole discussion about early jet engine life. It's real simple;

1. Don't exceed EGT on start up
2. Avoid rapid throttle movments
3. Don't exceed the maximum power limitations in the POH

That simple

 

[GrauGeist]

A book I would strongly suggest reading, is "The Me262 Stormbird" by Colin Heaton and Anne-Marie Lewis which has a great deal of information and excellent interviews of the 262 pilots themselves.

In this book, the reader will get a sense of day to day operations and they'll also find that nearly all of the pilots interviewed were impressed with the Me262's performance. There is also mention by many pilots in this book, about how dive-brakes (a common discussion here in the forums) were not useful to their mission.

 

[fastmongrel]

How did the general drop off in quality control that afflicted German industry from late 44 affect the 262. Was the 262 treated as a special case and kept pre 44 standards. I have read that late Bf109s could have wildly varying performance between aircraft from the same batch.

 

[Zyzygie]

How did the general drop off in quality control that afflicted German industry from late 44 affect the 262. Was the 262 treated as a special case and kept pre 44 standards. I have read that late Bf109s could have wildly varying performance between aircraft from the same batch.

The 262s were put together by slave labour. If they had a chance of sabotaging them without getting caught, they did:

"...As early as March 1944 slave labor was considered for production of the Me-262 but it wasn't until AFTER the July 20, 1944 bomb plot on the Fuhrer's life that the Me-262 eventually fell under control of the SS and their underground super assembly plant plans; still, a large percentage of the late 1944-1945 Me-262s were produced by slave labor. .."​

Re: me 262 jets sabotaged by slave labor
​

 

[Zyzygie]

I'll call 100% BS on that statement as well as the article. Robert Dorr was a long time aviation author and had many books published under Osprey (par for the course). Although he had a long and distinguished career in the US military, as a diplomat and as a writer, I don't think he was a rated pilot and doesn't provide any reference to back up that statement.

This is from Zeno's site, "Summary of debriefing German pilot Hans Fey on operational performance & late
war deployment of the Me 262 jet fighter."

From the document:

"Fay says that this aircraft is easier to fly than the latest types of Fw 190 or Me 109- In fact, he feels any Me 109 pilot is qualified to fly the Me 262 after one hour's instruction."

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/Me262/ME262PILOTDEBRIEF.pdf

"After Brown took off, he thought the airplane was easy—a pleasure, even—to fly: The controls were responsive, there were no vibrations and compared to a piston-engine fighter it whispered."

Lt. Roy Brown ATI USAAF, 1944

Watson's Whizzers - Saving the Me-262 | HistoryNet

And a quote from another Brown;

"After his flight, Eric had the highest praise for the 262, the world's first operational jet fighter, calling it, "the most formidable combat aircraft to evolve in World War II."

Jörg "Czyp" Czypionka on Eric Brown's evaluation of the Me 262.

Jorg Czypionka

Eric Brown's own words (starts at 4:00)


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhVp0dvwr68


There were some flight test reports that were critical of the Me 262, while not perfect by any means, I think some of these reports were agenda driven IMO. Form your own opinions but consider your sources, especially those who actually FLEW the aircraft!

The materials in the engine and its relatively sensitive axial flow compressor were such that operating them was like "treading on eggshells." With stainless steel turbine blades and mild steel flame tubes, there was no room for error in throttle operation. See attachment. Also:

"...Abrupt throttle changes or rapid maneuvering often resulted in a flameout, or worse, a complete compressor failure..."

Me 262 PROJECT TECHNICAL DATA​

 

[Frankenerd]

Assume that the GM's pilot was somewhat less experienced but more knowledgeable about the enemy aircraft than the 262 pilot (an allied jet fighter arriving with no warning would've be a shocker). Both of them meet each other at the same altitude shortly after the 262's dive on a B-17 Flying Fortress during an allied bombing run, who would win?

This has little to do with aerodynamic performance and everything to do with weapons systems! The Me-262 had 4X 30 MM Mk-108s and could not hit a maneuvering target with them. That is why prop fighters shot down many more jet fighters than vice verse. The 4X 20s in the GM had a flat trajectory and it was easy to get hits with them.
The 262 can run, but not win and the GM can win, but not catch the 262!
So, it all boils down to the geometry of the intercept. In a head on pass, the 262 looses almost every time! Also to P-38s and P-39s! But as the Angle off goes past the 3-9 line, the 262 pilots has to step on his **** to loose. Chasing any target, the 262 has such huge problems getting any hit at all that it is all a matter of luck and if he chooses to fight the dog, the other guy will get a shot in sooner or later.
So it's any other plane before the 262.

 

[Zyzygie]

For information, from :
The Me 262 Stormbird: From the Pilots Who Flew, Fought, and Survived It
By Colin D. Heaton

 

[Zyzygie]

Me 262 dogfighting strategy see attached excerpt:

 

[GrauGeist]

This has little to do with aerodynamic performance and everything to do with weapons systems! The Me-262 had 4X 30 MM Mk-108s and could not hit a maneuvering target with them. That is why prop fighters shot down many more jet fighters than vice verse. The 4X 20s in the GM had a flat trajectory and it was easy to get hits with them.
The 262 can run, but not win and the GM can win, but not catch the 262!
So, it all boils down to the geometry of the intercept. In a head on pass, the 262 looses almost every time! Also to P-38s and P-39s! But as the Angle off goes past the 3-9 line, the 262 pilots has to step on his **** to loose. Chasing any target, the 262 has such huge problems getting any hit at all that it is all a matter of luck and if he chooses to fight the dog, the other guy will get a shot in sooner or later.
So it's any other plane before the 262.

You can't be serious with this statement...

 

[stona]

The 262s were put together by slave labour. If they had a chance of sabotaging them without getting caught, they did:

"...As early as March 1944 slave labor was considered for production of the Me-262 but it wasn't until AFTER the July 20, 1944 bomb plot on the Fuhrer's life that the Me-262 eventually fell under control of the SS and their underground super assembly plant plans; still, a large percentage of the late 1944-1945 Me-262s were produced by slave labor. .."​

Whilst it is true that the Me 262 (and many other German aircraft) was built to a greater or lesser extent by forced and slave labour the author quoted, with his reference to the SS, shows a breathtaking ignorance of how labour was organised in the Third Reich, and the role of the SS in supplying some of it.

The Me 262 project was always under RLM control (unlike, say, the Ba 349 'Natter') and labour was supplied in the same way as to any other priority industry.

Millions of foreign workers, most of whom had nothing to do with the SS or its camps, died in Nazi Germany. Exonerating others and blaming the SS for all of this is the worst and most dangerous type of revisionism.

Not really relevant to the thread, but it needed saying.

Cheers

Steve

 

[FLYBOYJ]

For information, from :
The Me 262 Stormbird: From the Pilots Who Flew, Fought, and Survived It
By Colin D. Heaton

Again, more distorted facts - your original post quoted a post from an individual stating that the Me 262 was "difficult to fly," and again I call BS - there's not a shred of evidence to support this. There were operating variances that a pilot had to be fully aware of when operating early jets and they were all basically the same - Watch EGT on start up, avoid rapid throttle movements, keep airspeed up during final approach, don't let the jet "get ahead of you." Once a pilot was over these the Me 262 was probably easier to fly than any recip of the day, but like ALL early jets, they had their problems.

I have about 30 hours flying the L29 and there are a lot of similar characteristics found this in 1950s/60s trainer that you found in early jet fighters - No abrupt throttle movements, anticipate and prepare for slow engine spool up, on take off hold the nose down when first lifting off, build up airspeed then begin to climb. The big advantage flying the L29 when compared to early jets were speed brakes. More to come...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

This has little to do with aerodynamic performance and everything to do with weapons systems! The Me-262 had 4X 30 MM Mk-108s and could not hit a maneuvering target with them. That is why prop fighters shot down many more jet fighters than vice verse. The 4X 20s in the GM had a flat trajectory and it was easy to get hits with them.
The 262 can run, but not win and the GM can win, but not catch the 262!
So, it all boils down to the geometry of the intercept. In a head on pass, the 262 looses almost every time! Also to P-38s and P-39s! But as the Angle off goes past the 3-9 line, the 262 pilots has to step on his **** to loose. Chasing any target, the 262 has such huge problems getting any hit at all that it is all a matter of luck and if he chooses to fight the dog, the other guy will get a shot in sooner or later.
So it's any other plane before the 262.

Was that taken from a preamble from a flight simulator program? You state "geometry of the intercept. In a head on pass." Please tell us what that has to do with establishing a firing solution, lead or deflection shooting.

 

[fastmongrel]

The big advantage flying the L29 when compared to early jets were speed brakes. .

And Ejection seats lots of early jet jockeys ended up at the bottom of a smoking hole

 

[GrauGeist]

So it seems, in retrospect, that the Me262 was a dismal failure and that the Germans could not have possibly ushered in a new age of aviation - this was only reserved for the Allies.
We also see that the Me262 was just a fat, sitting target, unable to beat it's way out of a wet paper bag.

Here's a short list of "maneuvering targets" that oddly enough, the Me262 was able to shoot down (or damage beyond repair) with it's inferior Mk108 cannon:
Mosquito - Lt. Schreiber, 26 Jul 1944
Spitfire - Lt. Schreiber, 2 Aug 1944
Mosquito - Fw. Weber, 8 Aug 1944
Spitfire - Ofw. Baudach, 24 Aug 1944
Spitfire - Lt. Schreiber, 26 Aug 1944
Mosquito - Ofw. Reckers, 26 Aug 1944
Spitfire - Lt. Schreiber, 26 Aug 1944
Mosquito - Ofw. Gobel, 6 Sep 1944
P-51 - Ofw. Baudach, 11 Sep 1944
Mosquito - Lt. Weber, 14 Sep 1944
Mosquito - Lt. Weber, 18 Sep 1944
P-38 - Hpt. Eder, 6 Oct 1944
P-51 - Oblt.Bley, 10 Oct 1944
P-51 - Ofw. Lennartz, 12 Oct 1944
Mosquito - unknown pilot of Ekdo Lechfeld, 13 Oct 1944
P-51 - Oblt. Schall, 28 Oct 1944
P-38 - Lt. Schreiber, 28 Oct 1944
P-38 - Lt. Schreiber, 29 Oct 1944
P-47 - Fw. Buttner, 29 Oct 1944
P-47 - Ofw. Gobel, 29 Oct 1944
P-51 - Ofw. Banzhaff, 1 Nov 1944
P-51 - Fw. Buttner, 2 Nov 1944
P-47 - Fw. Buttner, 2 Nov 1944
P-47 - Ofw. Baudach, 2 Nov 1944
P-47 - Ofw. Gobel, 4 Nov 1944
P-47 - Oblt. Schall, 6 Nov 1944
P-47 - Oblt. Schall, 8 Nov 1944
P-47 - Oblt. Wegmann, 8 Nov 1944
P-51 - Oblt. Schall, 8 Nov 1944
P-51 - Oblt. Schall, 8 Nov 1944
P-51 - Maj. Nowotny, 8 Nov 1944
P-51 - Htp. Eder, 8 Nov 1944
P-51 - Hpt. Eder, 8 Nov 1944
P-51 - Hpt. Eder, 8 Nov 1944
P-51 - Hpt. Eder, 9 Nov 1944
P-51 - Hpt. Eder, 9 Nov 1944
P-51 - Lt. Weber, 23 Nov 1944
P-38 - Fw. Buttner, 24 Nov 1944
P-51 - Ofw. Gobel, 24 Nov 1944
P-38 - Ofw. Baudach, 4 Nov 1944
P-51 - Hpt. Eder, 25 Nov 1944
P-38 - Maj. Sinner, 26 Nov 1944
P-38 - Ofw. Buchner, 26 Nov 1944
Mosquito - Lt. Muller, 26 Nov 1944
Spitfire - Ofw. Lennartz, 27 Nov 1944
P-38 - Lt. Weber, 2 Dec 1944
P-38 - Fw. Buttner, 23 Dec 1944
P-51 - Fw. Buttner, 23 Dec 1944
P-51 - Fw. Bockel, 23 Dec 1944
Mosquito - Ofw. Buttner, 31 Dec 1944
Mosquito - Ofw. Baudach, 31 Dec 1944
P-15 - Ofw. Baudach, 31 Dec 1944

and this LONG list continues right up to the very end of the war:
YaK-9 - Oblt. Strehle, 8 May 1945

And for the record, these are air-to-air, daytime encounters. The short portion I posted above excludes probables, bombers and night-fighter action.
So tell me again about how the Me262 was unable to hit maneuvering targets with it's inferior Mk108 cannon?

 

[fastmongrel]

with it's inferior Mk108 cannon?

Meeehh the Mk108 vastly over rated I got shot by one once and it didnt even hurt I just pressed reset ordered another 16inch pizza and carried on with the game.

 

[GrauGeist]

Meeehh the Mk108 vastly over rated I got shot by one once and it didnt even hurt I just pressed reset ordered another 16inch pizza and carried on with the game.

 

[Glider]

This has little to do with aerodynamic performance and everything to do with weapons systems! The Me-262 had 4X 30 MM Mk-108s and could not hit a maneuvering target with them. That is why prop fighters shot down many more jet fighters than vice verse. The 4X 20s in the GM had a flat trajectory and it was easy to get hits with them.
The 262 can run, but not win and the GM can win, but not catch the 262!
So, it all boils down to the geometry of the intercept. In a head on pass, the 262 looses almost every time! Also to P-38s and P-39s! But as the Angle off goes past the 3-9 line, the 262 pilots has to step on his **** to loose. Chasing any target, the 262 has such huge problems getting any hit at all that it is all a matter of luck and if he chooses to fight the dog, the other guy will get a shot in sooner or later.
So it's any other plane before the 262.

I would appreciate your views on the tactics the allies had to use to try and shoot down the 262. Where they had to try and get them on landing and take off because they were almost invulnerable to interception when up to speed. This entailed flying down huge aa traps because the Germans had very effective aa guns. According to your belief all the allies had to do was wait for the Germans to come to them, indulge in a bit or aerobatics because the Germans couldn't hit them and eventually shoot the 262's when it was time for tea.

PS still waiting for your comments and evidence on the best aero engine thread.