1943 FW190D?

[wiking85]

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The high altitude FW190D historically entered production in August 1944 long after the fighter arm of the Luftwaffe was decimated by the high performance Allied fighters. It seems the reason for the delayed entry of this version was the Jumo 213 engine did not enter production until 1944. So if the DB603, which was in production from May 1942 on, was the chosen engine, might this aircraft have appeared earlier? The Jumo 213 was designed to replace the DB603, so had very similar dimensions and exactly the same output; it seems the only reason it was favored was because of the lower output of Daimler-Benz engines, due to pre-war favoritism.

I suppose the POD would be an expansion of Daimler production like Jumo experienced pre-war, which opens all sorts of butterflies thanks to the superior Daimler engines being available in larger numbers earlier, including perhaps a much earlier liquid-cooled FW190 version than even 1943.
Still, let's assume that the major change is that the FW190D is ready by June-July 1943 for squadron service.

What effect does it have on the air war? IIRC it would have had superior performance to the allied aircraft available in 1943 for escort duties and would have been the equal of those appearing in 1944, before the historical Dora version was available. It would be a matter of getting a capable aircraft in the hands of experienced fighter pilots before they were decimated in late 1943-early 1944, which would mean more survive longer and contest the skies over Germany during daylight hours, which in turn would make the air war more costly for the Allies and improve production on the ground for the Axis.
Would it make a difference?

 

[davebender]

Good aerial performance at high altitude plus large payload for carrying heavy firepower made Fw-190C and Fw-190D ideal for interception of heavy bombers. I would expect them to get this mission, freeing up additional Me-110s for night fighter force and Me-410s for light bomber units.

U.S. 8th Air Force won't have it any worse prior to introduction of long range bomber escorts during 1944. However RAF Bomber Command and the Red Army will take more casualties during 1943.

 

[wiking85]

Good aerial performance at high altitude plus large payload for carrying heavy firepower made Fw-190C and Fw-190D ideal for interception of heavy bombers. I would expect them to get this mission, freeing up additional Me-110s for night fighter force and Me-410s for light bomber units.

U.S. 8th Air Force won't have it any worse prior to introduction of long range bomber escorts during 1944. However RAF Bomber Command and the Red Army will take more casualties during 1943.

The performance advantage in 1943 isn't going to matter? It was the equivalent to the P51D in performance, so that would mean more losses to the USAF, while less to the Luftwaffe. Even the losses prevented by switching out the Me410 from daylight air defense operations, will help boost numbers overall when it matters in 1944. Quality overall goes up, which creates a feedback loop: more pilots live, so they inflict more losses on the enemy, which reduces their numbers and experience, while also preventing them from reaching their targets.

What about lessening the losses to the P51D when it shows up in early 1944? It cancels out the historical advantage of the P51D (or rather in this scenario the Luftwaffe technical advantage would be equaled), so that the losses to it that historically spiked wouldn't be as quick or as devastating, especially if there is time to build up numbers of them and for pilots to gain experience in the FW190D before its equal, the P51D, shows up.

Edit:
It seems there were still BF110s in service in 1944 bomber hunting! If the FW190D is replacing them it will save a lot of lives for the Luftwaffe. According to Wikipedia Spring 1944 saw the Luftwaffe losing 1000 planes a month in combat. That will likely be dramatically lessened by the FW190D being in service, which means hundreds of fighter pilots not being killed every month.

The Bf 110 also supported the German defence during Big Week in February 1944,

The experiences of Zerstörergeschwader "Horst Wessel", a Bf 110 squadron, indicates what happened to twin-engine fighters in the new combat environment. The unit worked up over January and February to operational ready status. At 12:13 pm, on February 20, 13 Bf 110s scrambled after approaching formations. Six minutes later three more took off to join the first group. When they arrived at the designated contact point there was nothing left to meet. American fighters had jumped the 13 Bf 110s from the sun and shot down 11. Meanwhile two enemy fighters strafed the airfield and damaged nine more aircraft.[48]

On 22 February, six Bf 110s were lost for two kills against B-17s, while on 6 March, five Bf 110s were lost and one damaged out of nine machines committed.[48] By April 1944, the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe had hoped to convert the Bf 110 Geschwader to the Me 410. However, after the Me 410 suffered equally high casualty rates, the conversion was delayed. The Bf 110 was considered to be obsolete and phased out of production accordingly. However, while crews found the Me 410 faster in "raw speed", they found it even less agile than the Bf 110 and very difficult to bail out of. The only other replacement type was the Dornier Do 335, which did not appear likely to be available for combat any time soon.[49] On 2 April, the Bf 110 achieved one of its final successful engagements. A force of 62 attacked a mixed bomber stream of B-17 and B-24s with R4M rockets, destroying five B-17s and three B-24s, as a well as a single P-38 Lightning. Losses were eight Bf 110s.[50] On 9 April, ZG 76 committed 77 to an USAAF raid on Berlin. USAAF P-51 Mustangs had now appeared, and were able to escort the Allied bombers to and from the target. The Bf 110 force lost 23 of the 77 machines. It never flew another mission in this capacity. The losses had "marked the beginning of the end of the Bf 110 Zerstörer as a firstline weapon in the RLV".[51] The Zerstörer was only to fly as a day fighter against unescorted formations. This would be rare throughout the remainder of the war.[51]

About losses:

In February, 1944, the Luftwaffe lost 33% of its frontline fighters and 18% of its pilots; the next month it lost 56% of its fighters and 22% of the pilots. April was just as bad, 43% and 20%, and May was worst of all, at 50% and 25%. German factories continued to produce many new planes, and inexperienced new pilots did report for duty; but their life expectancy was down to a few combat sorties. Increasingly the Luftwaffe went into hiding; with losses down to 1% per mission, the bombers now got through.[79]

By April, 1944, Luftwaffe tactical air power had vanished, and Eisenhower decided he could go ahead with the invasion of Normandy. He guaranteed the invaders that "if you see fighting aircraft over you, they will be ours."[80]

 

[riacrato]

R4M rockets in the spring of '44 on Bf 110s?

 

[stona]

A more fundamental problem is who is going to fly these aircraft? Only well trained,combat experienced pilots will be able to convert the better performance of the new aircraft into a combat advantage.

Luftwaffe training had more or less collapsed by the end of 1942 as instructors had been shuffled to the various crises and air lifts in the East and of course North Africa,never to return. Between January and October 1942 The Luftwaffe virtually lost an entire airforce (91.5% of the January total lost) and a correspondingly large number irreplaceable trained aircrew.

The Fw 190 D,in 1943,would still have been too late to have any kind of decisive impact.

Cheers

Steve

 

[GregP]

I agree stona, and I seriously doubt the DB 603 powered Fw 190 would be at the same level of development as the much later Fw 109D versions since the leter versions had over a year of development effort into their systems and airframes.

"What ifs" can be argued in any direction, but at least they remain "what ifs."

If you read Hartmann, Barkhorn and Rall, they all say they preferred the Me 109 over the Fw 190 (in its later versions), and I doubt they would switch over to an earlier version. Since the top aces didn;t switch when the superior later versions were produced, I find it highly unlikely they would switch from their trusty Me 109 mounts to the proposed earlier Fw 109 version either.

 

[stona]

R4M rockets in the spring of '44 on Bf 110s?

Not sure about that. There's plenty of evidence for the use of twin W.Gr. mortars in conjunction with a ventral pack of two MG 151/20s or a 3.7cm cannon. There were other combinations like two MG 151/20s in the nose and a 3.7 cm cannon underneath. Any of these will degrade the already marginal performance significantly.

"The experiences of Zerstörergeschwader "Horst Wessel", a Bf 110 squadron" who writes this stuff? A geschwader is not a squadron by anyone's reckoning! The lost aircraft were from III./ZG 26 (the third gruppe of that geschwader) and the incident happened on February 20th.

On the 6th March interceptions were made by II. and III./ZG 26 and I. and II./ZG 76. ZG 26 lost 11 out of 17 aircraft,ZG 76 lost 4. After this I. and III./ZG 26 were withdrawn.

On 16th March ZG 76 put up 43 Bf 110s to intercept a raid heading for Augsburg. They lost 26 and 10 more were damaged.

This was the end of the Bf 110 in defence of the Reich,both units withdrew to train on the Me 410. Some Bf 110 night fighters were sacrificed flying hopeless and suicidal day time interceptions which says a lot more about the bravery of the crews than the competence of their commanders.

Some Bf 110s were still flying convoy protection up in the North,based in Norway,right up until February 1945.

Steve

 

[Timppa]

Repeating my older post:

The first Fw-190V13 with DB603 flew in March 1942. The conversion went smoothly , without any technical problems.
The production of the FW 190C was have to begun in March 1943 and continued until March 1944, with 727 aircraft.
Projected performance with C3 fuel:
600 km/h ( 370 mph) at sea level.
730 km/h ( 454 mph) at 7 km ( 23,000ft)
Armament:
2xMG131 with 250rpg (cowl guns)
2xMG151 with 250 rpg (at wing roots)
1xMK103 with 65rpg (engine cannon)
Option with 2 additional MG151 in outer wings

Later Daimler Benz tested tested the the FW190CF+OW W.Nr. 0038 (fuel grade not given):
Speed OTD: 570 km/h (355 mph)
Speed at 7 km (23,000 ft): 720 km/h (447mph)
DB Conclusion: The performance numbers matches with the FW numbers within 1%.

Eventually the RLM cancelled the FW190C in late 1942 , possibly because of the needs of the Me-410 -program.

The above info is from Dietmar Hermann's book of Fw190D.

 

[wiking85]

Repeating my older post:

Thanks for the repeat. So it seems with more DB603 production we could have had the FW190C operating from early 1943 and providing a bridge until the FW190D showed up, but probably would likely replaced it with further development of the C-series that provides better high altitude performance.

 

[stona]

Hermann is of course correct about the Daimler Benz powered version. We should not forget that a Jumo 213 powered prototype (W.Nr 0039,CF+OX) first flew on 26th September 1942. At this time the DB 603 had been dropped and replaced by the Jumo engine.
The first "proper" D-9 prototype,complete with Jumo 213 C engine (V53) didn't fly until June 1944.
It takes longer than many imagine to develop these aircraft.
Cheers
Steve

 

[wiking85]

Hermann is of course correct about the Daimler Benz powered version. We should not forget that a Jumo 213 powered prototype (W.Nr 0039,CF+OX) first flew on 26th September 1942. At this time the DB 603 had been dropped and replaced by the Jumo engine.
The first "proper" D-9 prototype,complete with Jumo 213 C engine (V53) didn't fly until June 1944.
It takes longer than many imagine to develop these aircraft.
Cheers
Steve

What evidence was there that technically the FW190C would be in production later than the predicted date of March 1943? There weren't technical problems in development and aside from a very high altitude operating ceiling (over 40,000 feet), it was able to operate much more effectively than any other Luftwaffe aircraft by 1943 (development was in progress for +45k altitudes).

 

[davebender]

B-17 and B-24 bombers with payload cruise at about 180 mph. 350 mph Me-110 can catch them without difficulty. 400+ mph Fw-190D won't make much difference until 8th Air Force acquires escort fighters with endurance to go all the way to places like Berlin and Schweinfurt.

 

[davebender]

So did Britain, Soviet Union, Japan, Italy and everyone else involved in continuous aerial combat.

 

[wiking85]

B-17 and B-24 bombers with payload cruise at about 180 mph. 350 mph Me-110 can catch them without difficulty. 400+ mph Fw-190D won't make much difference until 8th Air Force acquires escort fighters with endurance to go all the way to places like Berlin and Schweinfurt.

What it will mean is that the single engine fighters will have the firepower to tackle the bombers, which means more fighters can be produced to tackle them instead of relying on the more expensive, slower, fewer Bf110s, Me410s, and Ju88s to do the job. Plus being faster they will be harder to hit.

Also the speed you list for the Bf110 was its top speed, not cruise speed, which was around 280mph.

 

[davebender]

3cm Mk108 cannon is the solution to that problem. R4M rockets are good too.

Any German figher aircraft can carry these weapons.

 

[Vincenzo]

110C-1/2 cruising a 320 mph at 20000, the G-2 a 330 mph

 

[wiking85]

3cm Mk108 cannon is the solution to that problem. R4M rockets are good too.

Any German figher aircraft can carry these weapons.

No actually, only the FW190 in the single engine aircraft could. In fact it was the only German aircraft that mounted the MK108 in combat historically.

 

[stona]

So did Britain, Soviet Union, Japan, Italy and everyone else involved in continuous aerial combat.

But the losses were easily sustainable for Britain and the US. By the last quarter of 1942 they were out producing the Germans by 250% for single engined fighters and 200% for twins. Four engined is irrelevant but the figure is 20,077%.
Germany could barely maintain the overall strength of the Luftwaffe at the levels of 1940 whereas the RAF and USAAF were rapidly expanding.

The Anglo/Americans also had in place comprehensive air crew training programs,mostly in complete safety in North America,but also South Africa and other places. They were unencumbered by any shortage of instructional personnel,aircraft or fuel.


All the above makes any comparison with the Luftwaffe's situation fairly irrelevant.

Steve

 

[stona]

Ignore

 

[tomo pauk]

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The high altitude FW190D historically entered production in August 1944 long after the fighter arm of the Luftwaffe was decimated by the high performance Allied fighters. It seems the reason for the delayed entry of this version was the Jumo 213 engine did not enter production until 1944. So if the DB603, which was in production from May 1942 on, was the chosen engine, might this aircraft have appeared earlier? The Jumo 213 was designed to replace the DB603, so had very similar dimensions and exactly the same output; it seems the only reason it was favored was because of the lower output of Daimler-Benz engines, due to pre-war favoritism.

I suppose the POD would be an expansion of Daimler production like Jumo experienced pre-war, which opens all sorts of butterflies thanks to the superior Daimler engines being available in larger numbers earlier, including perhaps a much earlier liquid-cooled FW190 version than even 1943.
Still, let's assume that the major change is that the FW190D is ready by June-July 1943 for squadron service.

What effect does it have on the air war? IIRC it would have had superior performance to the allied aircraft available in 1943 for escort duties and would have been the equal of those appearing in 1944, before the historical Dora version was available. It would be a matter of getting a capable aircraft in the hands of experienced fighter pilots before they were decimated in late 1943-early 1944, which would mean more survive longer and contest the skies over Germany during daylight hours, which in turn would make the air war more costly for the Allies and improve production on the ground for the Axis.
Would it make a difference?

Not that it would've changed the outcome of the war with Germans deploying the better performing Fw-190, but the crucial late 1943/ early 1944 would've provided the Allies many bloody noses. LW needs the performer at 20-30000 ft, in late 1943, so it can compete.
While the Fw-190A5-A6 were great fighters in 1943, the appearance of P-51B/C and longer ranged P-47Ds (plus WER paddle prop) quickly reversed the situation. The BMW-801 engined FWs were simply not able to compete with those, above 20000 ft - just where it was important. The USAF fighters have had like 50 mph of speed advantage at 25000 ft*, while the consecutive 190s (A7, A8), were gaining weight drag, but not power above 20000 ft. The only way to achieve a 190 to perform there, in specified time frame, is to install the DB-603 or Jumo 213. LW/RLM have had options to either kill Me-410 so the Fw-190C can be produced in late 1943, or to install BMW-801 in Ju-88/188, so the Fw-190D can be produced in early 1944. They skipped both.
Expecting from a pilot, no matter how good it was, to achieve results vs. the enemy with better performing airplanes is rather unrealistic. Production of under-performers can only kill your pilots (no matter how good they are) in an increasing rate.

*for comparison sake, such was a disadvantage Zero was fighting against the 1943 and later US RAF/RAAF/RNZAF