1943 FW190D?

[wiking85]

Not that it would've changed the outcome of the war with Germans deploying the better performing Fw-190, but the crucial late 1943/ early 1944 would've provided the Allies many bloody noses. LW needs the performer at 20-30000 ft, in late 1943, so it can compete.
While the Fw-190A5-A6 were great fighters in 1943, the appearance of P-51B/C and longer ranged P-47Ds (plus WER paddle prop) quickly reversed the situation. The BMW-801 engined FWs were simply not able to compete with those, above 20000 ft - just where it was important. The USAF fighters have had like 50 mph of speed advantage at 25000 ft*, while the consecutive 190s (A7, A8), were gaining weight drag, but not power above 20000 ft. The only way to achieve a 190 to perform there, in specified time frame, is to install the DB-603 or Jumo 213. LW/RLM have had options to either kill Me-410 so the Fw-190C can be produced in late 1943, or to install BMW-801 in Ju-88/188, so the Fw-190D can be produced in early 1944. They skipped both.
Expecting from a pilot, no matter how good it was, to achieve results vs. the enemy with better performing airplanes is rather unrealistic. Production of under-performers can only kill your pilots (no matter how good they are) in an increasing rate.

*for comparison sake, such was a disadvantage Zero was fighting against the 1943 and later US RAF/RAAF/RNZAF

focke wulf 190 fw190c

The Fw190C
the project of Fw190C was launched against the opinion of Technische Amt (Engineering departments of the RLM), especially because K.Tank wanted to equip it with engine DB603 to 12 cylinders on line. This engine, competitor direct of Jumo 21Á which had the preferences in high place, was developed by Daimler Benz without the directives of the technische Amt and in fact found itself classified as "undesirable" in the programs of Luftwaffe (and one little easily to imagine that the reasons of this attitude are not technical...). K.Tank, being known in position of force, did not hold any account of the opinion of its detractors and launched this program. The program of Fw190C was officially launched in July 1942, by the taking away and the modification of N° 0036 which was redésigné V13. This prototype, equipped with a DB60Á developing 1750 CV with takeoff was ready to fly in September. It had a long cap which covered an annular radiator, an oil radiator imposing under the cap and the wings had been advanced to rebalance the plane. V13 like V15 and V16 were mainly used to perfect the installation of the engine and were not pressurized. Others were built, the V19 prototypes in V21 prototypes for the Fw190C-1 series, and V25 with V27 for the series Fw190C-2. The latter was to be pressurized and armed with 2xMG152/20 in the roots of wings and 2xMG131 with cap. The V16 prototype equipped with a compressor Daimler Benz "standard G" was tested in Langenhagen at the end of November 1942 and immediately gave satisfaction from the point of view of the performances. It went up to 12200 meters with a climbing speed of 22 m/s and reached 724 Km/h in smooth configuration with 7000 meters. Although promising, these performances were declared unsatisfactory for Technische Amt which suddenly claimed a practical ceiling of 13700 meters.

So the FW190C with the DB603 was able to have a service ceiling of 40,000 feet, but after highly successful testing the RLM decided they needed to operate at 45,000 feet instead. Why not use the FW190C as a stopgap until the TA152 was ready? As it was the FW190D was that, but only after it was too late.

Edit:
I'm looking at my copy of Green's "War planes of the third reich" and it looks like the RLM was playing favorite with the Jumo 213, so wanted that to work, but once the FW190D came into service they changes their tune and ordered the DB603E installed in some FW190Ds for testing again. The DB603 had better performance than the Jumo, so the plan was that the D14 and D15 FW190s would be re-engined with the DB603 from now on. The bombing got in the way of production plans, but it seems that the Jumo was the inferior engine.

Even the FW team developing the FW190C and D thought that the DB603 was the superior altitude engine with greater development potential, but were overruled by the RLM that wanted to favor Jumo, which at this point was a state-owned institution.

 

[stona]

Didn't they try to turbo charge the DB 603 of the Fw 190 C? Didn't several prototypes have a turbo pack slung underneath?I know V18 did.
I can't check now but I vaguely remember that the failiure to make the system work,and problems with the cockpit pressurisation,were factors that led to the dropping of the project.
Sorry to be so vague,there's a Christmas tree between me and most of my books
Cheers
Steve

 

[wiking85]

Didn't they try to turbo charge the DB 603 of the Fw 190 C? Didn't several prototypes have a turbo pack slung underneath?I know V18 did.
I can't check now but I vaguely remember that the failiure to make the system work,and problems with the cockpit pressurisation,were factors that led to the dropping of the project.
Sorry to be so vague,there's a Christmas tree between me and most of my books
Cheers
Steve

Yes, for altitudes above 40,000 feet, which wasn't necessary in 1943 or really most of 1944.
Pressurized cockpits were necessary in the 40k feet range, but that research would take time to perfect for fighters and shouldn't have been a reason to cancel the project. Anyway it seems that there was some politics going on, as the DB603 had better performance than the Jumo 213, but the state-owned Jumo was picked despite protests and advice from the development teams working on the high altitude project.
At that point very high altitude research was ongoing, but wouldn't be ready until later with the TA152. The FW190D was not any better with a turbo charger, so even the Dora was a stopgap until the TA152 would be ready.
As it was the Focke-Wulf development team favored the DB603 as a better performing engine at altitude and had better development potential than the Jumo 213, but they were overruled by the RLM.

 

[tomo pauk]

Hi, wiking:

The FW190D was not any better with a turbo charger,

What 190D with turbo?

 

[wiking85]

Hi, wiking:



What 190D with turbo?

You're right, there wasn't one, it was just the TA152. Which also means that the FW190C didn't need one to fill the role that the FW190D did and the LW had to wait for a dedicated high altitude FW190, the TA152.

 

[tomo pauk]

Sorry to be PITA, but what Ta-152 have had turbo?

 

[wiking85]

Sorry to be PITA, but what Ta-152 have had turbo?

Focke-Wulf Ta 152 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Ta 152H boasted excellent high altitude performance, using a Jumo 213E engine (a high-altitude version of the Jumo 213A/C used in the Fw 190D), a two-stage, three-speed supercharger and the MW 50 methanol-water mixture engine boost system.

Supercharger, not turbo. My mistake.

 

[Denniss]

No actually, only the FW190 in the single engine aircraft could. In fact it was the only German aircraft that mounted the MK108 in combat historically.

Never heard of Bf 109 K-4, G-6/U4, G-10/U4 or G-14/U4 ?!?

 

[tomo pauk]

Okay, no problemo, wiking
Interestingly enough, Wikipedia lists the supercharger as a something extra to the engine, blurring the fact that the very two stage supercharger was a key for the engine's ability to perform well in altitude. In other words, reading the excerpt, one could arrive to conclusion that Jumo213E was a performer at high altitudes even without the crucial 2-stage supercharger
The excerpt does not state another important thing, namely the presence of inter-cooler, another important ingredient for engine's capabilities at hi alt.

 

[wiking85]

Never heard of Bf 109 K-4, G-6/U4, G-10/U4 or G-14/U4 ?!?

Actually no. Thanks for the info.
It turns out I was thinking about the Mk103 not 108, and it was with the Do335, not the FW190.

 

[hawker1966]

A Great and interesting thread.
would anyone have any photos they could post, of the Jumo 213 engine.externally and internally, as quite hard to source.the reason being i have a relic section of this engine that includes the camshaft section piston and would like to confirm the same.

Cheers.

 

[stona]

It turns out I was thinking about the Mk103 not 108, and it was with the Do335

The MK 103 installation intended,as you say,for the Do 335 was never perfected before the end of the war. It was initially tested on V9 (later also on V5) with constant stoppages and other problems.A report described the results of tests undertaken in July 1944 with the with the MK 103 as "nicht einwandfrei". A loose translation might be "less than perfect".

There were plans to install the 55mm MK 112 in the Do 335 but nothing came of it before the end of the war.

Cheers

Steve

 

[drgondog]

The B-17 cruised (inbound) at 150-155 IAS at 25-26000 -----> closer to 205mph TAS, B-24 cruised at 165+ which is about 215mph TAS at 22-23000 feet.

The 110 still has significant speed advantage but not as great as presented above. Outbound, unloaded, the speed will increase about 5mph.

 

[Vincenzo]

100 mph and more i think is great....

 

[davebender]

Mk 103 and Mk108 cannons fired similiar mine shell projectiles. Difference was projectile velocity.

Until gyro stabilized gun sights were introduced you don't need a weapon accurate @ 1,000 meters for use against aerial targets. 3cm Mk108 cannon will work just fine for killing B-17s.

 

[stona]

Mk 103 and Mk108 cannons fired similiar mine shell projectiles. Difference was projectile velocity.

Until gyro stabilized gun sights were introduced you don't need a weapon accurate @ 1,000 meters for use against aerial targets. 3cm Mk108 cannon will work just fine for killing B-17s.

And yet the RLM specifically specified the MK 103 for the Do 335. Maybe they did see an advantage,firing mine shells,of an increased muzzle veloctity (860m/s as opposed to 520m/s).
They were prepared to accept the reduction in rate of fire (600/440 rpm) and large increase in size and weight (58Kg/146Kg).
The MK 103 could fire armour piecing ammunition (slightly higher velocity,slightly lower r.o.f.)

If they had considered the old MK 108 adequate why not go with it? As I said above,they never got the MK 103 to work properly in the Do 335.

The Do 335 was to have the EZ 42 "Adler" gun sight which was a gyroscopic sight.

Cheers

Steve

 

[davebender]

And yet the RLM specifically specified the MK 103 for the Do 335. Maybe they did see an advantage,firing mine shells,of an increased muzzle veloctity (860m/s as opposed to 520m/s).

The Do 335 was to have the EZ 42 "Adler" gun sight which was a gyroscopic sight.

We have reached the same conclusion. Do-335 had a stabilized gun sight so it made sense to have long range weapons.

It's also worth noting the Do-335 was a light bomber complete with bomb bay. The Mk103 cannon would be used against both ground and aerial targets.

 

[Shortround6]

The MK 108 was a rather short ranged gun, or at least no longer ranged than the majority of Luftwaffe weapons, which were all a bit shorter ranged than the american .50 and the Hispano. The Germans themselves in one study figured the effective range against bombers for the MK 108 was 400 meters. But that is also the effective range for the MG 131, the MG-FF and the MG 151/20. The Mg 151/15 was figured at 600 meters and the MK 103 at 800 meters.

MAXIMUM ranges were considerably longer. Better sights can only do so much.

Time of flight to 600 meters at sea level for the MG 131, MG-FFM, Mg 151/15, MG 151/20 (regular HET shell) and MK 108 are 1.22, 1.428, 0.816, 1.101, and 1.66 seconds respectively. Times of flight at 6-8,000 meters will be less but will be somewhat proportional. Please note that the MG 151/15 while lacking hitting power, has a time of flight to 600 meters about 1/2 that of the MK 108 and will be much easier to hit with regardless of the sight. The MK 103 would have enjoyed a similar advantage. It may not be a 1000 meter gun it might be a 600-700 meter gun instead of a 400 meter gun without the gyro sight.

 

[stona]

Yes,range,effective range,limiting range and the efficiency of sighting systems was something that guunery schools struggled to explain at the time!

Cheers

Steve

 

[silence]

Just to go one (big) step beyond, what kind of performance could be expected from a Dora (D-14?) with the four additional wing tanks as planned and a DB 603N?

I'm curious about both max speed and climb rate, with and without MW-50.

I'm guessing about 800km/h and 23m/s.

(Did all 603 sub-types weight approximately the same?)