German Regular Army the Luftwaffe were still all over Europe when Germany surrendered.
@ DonL; As far for the 109 being 'dead meat', hardly. It was a deadly foe right until the end.
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German Regular Army the Luftwaffe were still all over Europe when Germany surrendered.Let me just add, too, we refer to this as the "ETO." That's bullshit. This war, once it really got going, was on Germany's home turf. For that reason, in itself, it had it even harder than Japan.
Oh yah lol. IIRC the 262 V1/2/3 was available during the BoB, engine availability was the problem. Somehow, Jumo would have to produce a lot more engines to make the 262 viable. Flak gets everything sooner or later. How many hours were those early jet engines good for?
You could build twice as many Bf 109Es with the limited amount of DB 601s available. That means you go to war with only half the fighter force. I think I would stick with the Bf 109E ... which at the time was the best fighter plane in the world.
Of course Dave, I know you are going to say that they should have given full priority to a massive DB 601 or even 603 production schedule ...
Kris
Well, when did it start? It started well-before the Allies got in there on the ground. It started with the bombing missions. Once those got going, the fight was in Germany's corner. And it didn't let up.Re. bolded part: what year do you have in mind, when the war 'really got going'?
Definitely. But let's not neglect the significance of Germany in itself being a front. That only compounded its inability to lick its wounds. The more those bombing missions escalated, the more so.German Regular Army the Luftwaffe were still all over Europe when Germany surrendered.
I see DonL is going to design a new twin from the Fw 187, with heavier engines, never built, and state that it would not be outclassed by anything, despite that fact that, except for the Mosquito and P-38, there were very few successful day twin fighters. I'd say there might be some interesting development ahead.
And the P-38 was faster than the proposed Fw 187 might have been with the proposed DB 601's. It was at least over 400 mph. The DB engined FW 187 would not have been by a good margin. You could not substitute a 34% heavier engine with more power without encountering a bigger radiator and the atendant cooling drag increase, not to mention the heavier engine mounts and attendant strengthening of the airframe to support the heavier engines at the g-limit. My estimate with standa aedodynamic equations would have it in the 380 - 385 mkph range with the DB 601's. Good, but the best? Maybe.
Might have been a pretty good fighter, but better than one of the premier single seaters of all times, I strongly would like to see that before accepting it at face value.
Thanks for the correctionThe flight flight of the Me262V1 was on 18 April 1941. BoB had been over for a few months.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super...performance_and_armament#Early_Merlin_engines
Well, the Mark II Spitfire was the model the Fw187 would have faced in the BoB. It had a top speed of just under 360mph and had less than half the internal fuel of the Fw187. Not only that, but it was slower in a dive or climb, thanks to the DB601's fuel injection system.
Beyond that most fighters shot down in the BoB (~80%) didn't see the enemy coming, so much was based on who was superior in boom-and-zoom, rather than the Spitfire's favored turn-and-burn tactics. So the Fw187 would have a serious advantage over the Spitfire, so long as its not taken by surprise or let's itself get sucked into a turn-and-burn battle; considering that its very likely only the best pilots would be allowed for fly such an aircraft
IMO Fw-187 would have been best fighter aircraft in the world during 1940 bar none. And it was production ready.
However the original question concerned getting a jet into combat during BoB.
I would really like to see the figures that will convincingly show that the Fw-187 would have done all of these things, particularly the climbing and diving: I have Hermann and Petrick's book on the Fw 187 and all I see are lots of projected performance figures for planned Fw 187 derivatives when fitted with various engine types, including the DB605. There is no mention anywhere of the confirmed or projected diving speeds so I cannot see how such claims can be confirmed.
Fw 187 V4 rate of climb = 12.1 m/sec = 2,381 ft/min, gross weight = 4,900 kg: projected Fw 187 with DB605 = 13 m/sec = 2,559 ft/min, gross weight = 8,200 kg.
There was only one Fw 187, the V5, tested with DB601s using evaporative cooling; the only performance figure quoted is 635 km/h (394 mph) "at low altitude", with the engines developing 1,350 hp - there is no indication whether this was with armament or at full loaded weight. It is doubtful whether the RLM would have continued with evaporative cooled DB601s because the system was far too vulnerable to battle damage, not to mention the nightmares of maintenance at a unit level, and supply issues involved in manufacturing and issuing yet another version of the DB601 when there were already problems involved in manufacturing and supplying the standard models. Another problem was that supplies of C3 96 Octane fuel were always problematic and unreliable.
I see DonL is going to design a new twin from the Fw 187, with heavier engines, never built, and state that it would not be outclassed by anything, despite that fact that, except for the Mosquito and P-38, there were very few successful day twin fighters. I'd say there might be some interesting development ahead.
And the P-38 was faster than the proposed Fw 187 might have been with the proposed DB 601's. The P-38 and some Mosquitoes were at least over 400 mph. The DB engined FW 187 would not have been by a good margin, if you look at power increase alone. Add some frontal area increase and it get slower. You could not substitute a 34% heavier engine with more power without encountering a bigger radiator and the atendant cooling drag increase, not to mention the heavier engine mounts and attendant strengthening of the airframe to support the heavier engines at the g-limit. My estimate with standa aedodynamic equations would have it in the 380 - 385 mph range with the DB 601's. Good, probably. But the best? Maybe.
Unfortunately its a hypothetical aircraft, so there is no such thing as convincing evidence if you're demanding a working example's data as proof.I would really like to see the figures that will convincingly show that the Fw-187 would have done all of these things, particularly the climbing and diving: I have Hermann and Petrick's book on the Fw 187 and all I see are lots of projected performance figures for planned Fw 187 derivatives when fitted with various engine types, including the DB605. There is no mention anywhere of the confirmed or projected diving speeds so I cannot see how such claims can be confirmed.
Fw 187 V4 rate of climb = 12.1 m/sec = 2,381 ft/min, gross weight = 4,900 kg: projected Fw 187 with DB605 = 13 m/sec = 2,559 ft/min, gross weight = 8,200 kg.
There was only one Fw 187, the V5, tested with DB601s using evaporative cooling; the only performance figure quoted is 635 km/h (394 mph) "at low altitude", with the engines developing 1,350 hp - there is no indication whether this was with armament or at full loaded weight. It is doubtful whether the RLM would have continued with evaporative cooled DB601s because the system was far too vulnerable to battle damage, not to mention the nightmares of maintenance at a unit level, and supply issues involved in manufacturing and issuing yet another version of the DB601 when there were already problems involved in manufacturing and supplying the standard models. Another problem was that supplies of C3 96 Octane fuel were always problematic and unreliable
I may have been supposing to much by making that comment, as I'm assuming that this aircraft would replace the Bf110, which was supposedly only for elite units, which would mean that as its replacement in production, it would take the place as the 'elite' aircraft.All this means is that the Spitfire would be at a disadvantage if surprised by an Fw 187, which is meaningless really because any fighter caught by surprise is at a disadvantage. "considering that its very likely only the best pilots would be allowed for fly such an aircraft" evidence for this please - chances are had the Fw 187 been built in quantity it would have been issued to Geschwader, just like any other aircraft type, and not individual pilots or "elite" units.
I read a book about Bader in which describes clearly that the Bf109F was definitely not superior to the Mk.V. The FW190A on the other hand clearly was.The Bf 109F-4 was better or equal to the Spitfire V
The FW 190A outclassed the Spitfire V at 1942
A Fw 187 with two DB 601A1 would have outclassed a Spitfire MK II and V at Speed, dive, range and arnament. With two DB 601F (1350PS), it would had outclassed the Spitfire IX from speed, dive, range and arnament.