Aircraft Disasters

[XBe02Drvr]

They did a deliberate stall at high altitude to check out the flight control system. And the flight control system that was designed to prevent stalling the airplane - the very system that enabled Capt Scully to land on the Hudson River without fear of stall - prevented stall recovery (computer: You don't need to put the nose down! You are not stalling!). The airplane did not recover from the stall and went into the ocean nose first, straight down.

Check out the Aviation Safety Network report on this accident and investigation, it has a minute by minute narrative of events, control inputs, and communications. They augered in from less than 3000 feet after a bucking bronco ride that sounds like a combination of pilot induced oscillations and a confused FBW system trying to counter the pilot's control inputs with stabilizer trim. It didn't help that there were large changes in thrust settings and configuration throughout the episode. The final stall occurred too low for recovery. At impact the aircraft was nose down, accelerating, and no longer stalled. Another 2-3000 feet would probably have saved the day.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[MIflyer]

Okay, I just posed a G-Suit piece for anyone interested.

 

[swampyankee]

Still, I think commercial Airlines are the safest mode of travel considering passenger miles covered.

I think rail travel has consistently lower death rates per passenger mile, but commercial aviation is quite safe.

Of course! Aren't all airline pilots Supermen and super heroes?? They damn well better be, for what we pay them!

Well, we don't pay them like that any more. A number of US airlines declared bankruptcy specifically to abrogate labor contracts and cut pilots' salaries.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Average starting salary for a fresh commercial pilot is $16 an hour...

 

[vikingBerserker]

$16 an hour???? Holy crap!

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Average starting salary for a fresh commercial pilot is $16 an hour...

If they can get hired at all. There's a huge yawning gap between graduation from an academy with 350 hours and all the tickets in hand, and the 1500 hours, ATP, and jet type rating required to climb into the right seat of today's commuter planes and start earning that princely sum. You wonder the biggies are experiencing a pilot shortage? And flight instructors are paid less than sales clerks at Home Depot. And the large reservoir of small scale corporate flight departments with Navajos, 421s, and King Airs, where newbies could grab some right seat multi time, has dwindled and tightened up due to insurance, tax, and regulatory requirements. And some of the commuters, walking a financial tightrope, are still paying new hire first officers less than new hire flight attendants. Oh, and BTW, applying for food stamps is a termination offense.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Well, we don't pay them like that any more. A number of US airlines declared bankruptcy specifically to abrogate labor contracts and cut pilots' salaries.

Does the public understand that? In my experience, they don't. And when they do understand, they tend to think the cuts are merely from "Obscene" down to "Grossly Overpaid". Remember, most of the public has lost a lot of ground in the income vs cost of living battle over the last decade. Do you expect them to have much sympathy with "a bunch of high profile overpaid prima donnas"?
Cheers,
Wes

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

If they can get hired at all. There's a huge yawning gap between graduation from an academy with 350 hours and all the tickets in hand, and the 1500 hours, ATP, and jet type rating required to climb into the right seat of today's commuter planes and start earning that princely sum. You wonder the biggies are experiencing a pilot shortage? And flight instructors are paid less than sales clerks at Home Depot. And the large reservoir of small scale corporate flight departments with Navajos, 421s, and King Airs, where newbies could grab some right seat multi time, has dwindled and tightened up due to insurance, tax, and regulatory requirements. And some of the commuters, walking a financial tightrope, are still paying new hire first officers less than new hire flight attendants. Oh, and BTW, applying for food stamps is a termination offense.
Cheers,
Wes

I have a friend who flies for a commuter/regional. They live in trailors at the airport, because they can not afford anything else.

I want to get my CFI, but only so I can help others achieve their dream of flying. There is no money to be made in that. They call it paying your dues...

 

[The Basket]

People pay for cheapest ticket and expect to be treated like cattle.
Annoys me them programme where some expert says the pilot did this wrong. Excuse me but the pilot had a few seconds to live so give him some credit. Easy to say what you would have done drinking coffee behind your desk.

 

[Zipper730]

TRAINING??? DRILL?? STAN/EVAL? Is anybody on the ball here?

The pilots were... everybody else would have basically died had this been for real.

USAF is supposed to be the most organized, procedural, and anal of the services

Out of curiosity, why are they so anal?

 

[Zipper730]

Okay, I just posed a G-Suit piece for anyone interested.

Sure, put it up

 

[XBe02Drvr]

If

The pilots1. were... everybody else would have basically died had this been for real.
Out of curiosity, why are they so anal?

1. What do you mean "for real"?? They were REALLY in flight in a REAL aircraft and REALLY passed out and in danger of REALLY dying through the REAL stupidity of all those involved who should have stuck to the REAL procedures in place to prevent this kind of REAL negligence. The Aircraft Commander and all surviving aircrew would have been "burned" if somebody had actually died.
2. I've never been in the USAF, but I've lived and worked with them, worked and flown with current and former AF/AFRES/ANG pilots, aircrew, and enlisted guys. They seem to be operating in a tightly regulated world where there's a regulation, a procedure, and an interpretation for every conceivable situation or decision. It seems there is nothing left to local initiative or "man on the scene" autonomy. Every unit commander's office I've been in was arranged and decorated to the same "cookie cutter" pattern with little variation or originality. When I've fueled their aircraft, they've been extremely rigid about which of multiple grounding points I clipped onto, EXACTLY where and in what orientation I parked the truck, EXACTLY how I laid out the hose, and which wheels on the tanker truck I chocked.
Spells A N A L to me.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Annoys me them programme where some expert says the pilot did this wrong. Excuse me but the pilot had a few seconds to live so give him some credit. Easy to say what you would have done drinking coffee behind your desk.

The leadership of NTSB and many other investigative bodies around the world are political appointees with usually no hands-on experience with aviation, railroads, shipping, or trucking. They depend on their highly experienced technical staff to dig out the data, but draw the final conclusions themselves. It sometimes happens that they override the recommendations of staff when they are idealogically unpalatable. Notably they have been sometimes reluctant in the past to acknowledge management actions or human physiology or psychology as contributing factors in accident scenarios, preferring to hold operating crew members to superhuman levels of perfection, regardless of circumstances. It's easier and less professionally risky to blame the individual rather than the system. The company, the unions, the various government agencies, the equipment manufacturers, and in many cases the victims, all have their representitives on hand to "aid" in the investigation and "provide expertise", but really to defend their organization's interests and shift the blame on someone else.
Doesn't it just warm the cockles of your heart?
Cheers,
Wes

 

[billrunnels]

The leadership of NTSB and many other investigative bodies around the world are political appointees with usually no hands-on experience with aviation, railroads, shipping, or trucking. They depend on their highly experienced technical staff to dig out the data, but draw the final conclusions themselves. It sometimes happens that they override the recommendations of staff when they are idealogically unpalatable. Notably they have been sometimes reluctant in the past to acknowledge management actions or human physiology or psychology as contributing factors in accident scenarios, preferring to hold operating crew members to superhuman levels of perfection, regardless of circumstances. It's easier and less professionally risky to blame the individual rather than the system. The company, the unions, the government

Wes.......I don't buy that for a minute. The NTSB has has worked hard to determine the cause if accidents for many years. Some times it is nearly impossible to make that decision but they make the effort. I think they deserve more credit than you give.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Wes.......I don't buy that for a minute. The NTSB has has worked hard to determine the cause if accidents for many years. Some times it is nearly impossible to make that decision but they make the effort. I think they deserve more credit than you give.

Bill, I apreciate your opininion and I share your appreciation of the technical staff. They're heroes in my book. I'm less enthralled with the political leadership. There've been some really good dedicated impartial ones over the years, but I think there've been some clueless political hacks as well. One of those is one too many in my book.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Hey Bill,
How about going back and rereading my NTSB post? Due to a glitch in my smart?phone, that post went up in segments, and I don't think you saw the whole thing before you replied.
I've been personally acquainted with people who've been party to these investigations as crew members, union representatives, manufacturer reps, airline reps, and FAA and NWS reps. I imagine you have too, given your career. My apologies if I've offended you with truth as I see it.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[The Basket]

Not a pilot myself but ex military and it's far easier to blame the man rather than machine.
Can you imagine the RAF blaming themselves? For anything? Dead men can't defend themselves and I have followed aircraft investigation for many years and there does seem a blame game and usually the pilot is at fault even if he isn't.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I have followed aircraft investigation for many years and there does seem a blame game and usually the pilot is at fault even if he isn't.

The aircrew usually have the least powerful advocates in the postcrash pissing contest, plus in most countries outside the US and EU, being involved in any way in a public conveyance accident is in itself a crime. So there's that stigma to deal with as well.
To quote Jake Grafton in "Flight of the Intruder": "It's always the fault of the guy who's got his hand on the stick. He's the dummy that signed for the aircraft!" What a wonderful world we live in.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[swampyankee]

People pay for cheapest ticket and expect to be treated like cattle.
Annoys me them programme where some expert says the pilot did this wrong. Excuse me but the pilot had a few seconds to live so give him some credit. Easy to say what you would have done drinking coffee behind your desk.

Pilots all know, in their hearts of hearts, that some very hard-nosed professionals are going to go through the last few few hours of their lives before a crash with a very fine toothed comb.

The amateurs are just noise

 

[MIflyer]

To the contrary, it has seemed to me in the USAF aircraft mishaps I have worked on, the Mishap Board is run by pilots and their first priority often seems to be to try to exonerate the aircrew. I recall an F-105 mishap that involved a fatality in which the pilot was asked all kinds of questions about what he ate and how he felt that day but they did not ask him about what tank he had selected and if the saber drain overflow light was on. This would have been very nice to know for the engineers trying to figure out why the airplane was gushing fuel from every possible location. We concluded that there was nothing the pilot did or could have done. Ultimately the fault was that a couple of civilians at OC-ALC had decided that it was too much trouble to change out the auxilliary tank pressure regulator on a time compliance basis and just wait until it failed. After all, it had a backup, but guess what - if you blow air through a close tolerance spool valve for years and then suddenly it has to work, it won't. Result: 150 PSI to the tanks rather than 12 PSI. We then were faced with the entire F-105 fleet equipped with regulators that could let go at any minute and a Wild Weasel unit that needed to deploy to Europe.